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1) Genetic relationships of bay, black, and chestnut
2) Definitions of "chestnut" vs. "sorrel"
3) Definitions of "dun" vs. "buckskin"
4) Unusual colors: What is grulla? cremello? perlino?
5) Genetic relationships of palomino, cremello, and chestnut
6) Paint/pinto: tobiano, overo, sabino, splashed white, medicine hat
7) White: Greys, true whites, albino, lethal white genes
8) Grey and roan: definitions, dappling, and fleabitten grey
9) "Bloody shoulders" and other interesting Arabian markings
10) Zebra stripes
11) Foal color and adult color
12) Interesting case studies.
1. GENETICS OF BAY, BLACK, AND CHESTNUT
Linda Newell writes:
>This is very interesting to me. Can anyone explain to me why my horse,
>who is the output of one chestnut and one black is a bay. I have heard
>several explanations, but still don't understand. The black is a
>Percheron, so I am sure he didn't have any bay in his background
>(Percherons can only be black or gray). The chestnut had a bay mother
>and a chestnut father. The mother and father of my horse's mother had
>six foals and all were chestnut. My other horse is the product of
>a gray mare and the same black father. Also, I have seen several Belgian/
>Percheron crosses, and all were bay, sometimes with washed out looking
>noses and flanks. In the winter time, my horse gets blondish hairs on
>his legs and his belly, but in summer he is a bright mahogany bay with
>black points and no white markings.
>Linda
Hi, Linda, this is going to get somewhat complicated but bear with me.
There are several gene locuses at work here, your horse's parents
were of genotype: A- ee in the case of the chestnut and aa E- in the case
of the black. A, means that the body color is red or reddish and the
points are black, as in a bay horse. a, means the horse is black all over.
But another locus, the chestnut locus can cover up the affects of 'a' black
genes or 'A' bay genes. The 'E' gene does not cover up black or bay, the
'e' gene does cover up black or bay and makes the horse red, chestnut.
Because 'e' is recessive you need two ee's to make the cover-up work. So
your horse's father carried the aa black genes and the E- that allows
either black or bay. Your horse's mother carried A- which is bay and ee
which is chestnut that covers up black or bay. Now each horse contribute
one of each gene pair to the baby. Thus your horse's father contributed an
'a' and the 'E' which prevented your horse from being chestnut. Your
horse's mother contributed the 'A' which made your horse bay instead of
black and an 'e' which because it was recessive to 'E' doesn't show up.
Thus your horse's genotype is Aa Ee and will be able to produce blacks,
bays, and chestnuts if mated to horses carrying these genes though because
of the complicated interactions prediction of which color will come through
may be difficult. For example if mated to another Aa Ee bay horse this
horse will produce bay, chestnut, and black in the ratio of 9 bay: 4
chestnut: 3 black. But if mated to a bay whose genotype is AA Ee your
horse will produce only bays and chestnuts though some of those could
produce blacks. By the way grey is caused by another locus the 'G'
causes grey, 'g' causes non-grey.
Kinda complicated but it really makes sense, honest.
Tracy
****
Question: Bay x chestnut -- what are chances of black foal?
>From Tracy:
Let's take the case of a black horse, which is one of the most
difficult colors to achieve in most breeds. Remember that chestnut ee
covers up black aa and bay A-. So, a chestnut horse with a black ancestor
is bred to a bay horse with a black ancestor. The chestnut's gene pattern
looks something like a?ee (a? because it had a black ancestor, ee because
it is chestnut). The bay's gene pattern looks something like AaE? (A
because it is bay, a because it had a black ancestor, E? because it is not
chestnut). When they breed, there are 16 different combinations possible,
of which 4 are definitely bay, 4 are bay or chestnut depending on what
genes the ? are, 4 are chestnut or black, 2 are bay or black, and only 2
are definitely black. If we make the first ?=A and the second ?=e then, the
possible offspring are 8 chestnuts, 6 bays, and 2 blacks in other words a
ratio of 4:3:1. When you add more color genes it becomes more
complicated.
****
>b) is Bay also a dominant gene such that two bay horses should
>always produce bay?
Bay is a dominant gene, however the only colors that always breed
true are the recessives such as ee chestnut, if you breed two chestnuts
together you will get chestnut, no exceptions. Dominant genes such as A
bay can hide or cover up the presence of recessive genes such as a black,
or e chestnut. Other dominant genes located at different locuses can
cover up bay, for example G grey. My yearling filly was born bay and is
turning grey, by the time she is six or seven she will be almost white
with very little to show for the bay color she carries.
****
>Also, Tracy, I have a red chestnut mare. I am breeding her next year to
>a chestnut stallion so I will certainly get a chestnut baby. If I breed
>her to a black/bay (Arabs that are black with brown muzzle are called
>black/bays), what kinds of color can I expect. I am fairly sure the
>stallion's sire or dam was a solid black. Oh, yes, he is a purebred
Arab...
The black/bay color is also known as seal brown, dark brown, etc. it
appears to be caused by the action of the P pangare gene on aa black
horses. So this stallion is probably aa E- Pp. We don't know whether he
harbors an e chestnut gene, or whether your chestnut mare ee harbors a a
black or A bay gene. So your most likely possibilities are: black
(difficult, but possible), black/bay, chestnut possibly even liver chestnut
depending on whether the stallion has an Sty gene, or normal bay. I can't
give you percentages because it depends on the genes we don't know about.
Tracy
***
Melanie Dresser writes:
And how common are true black horses as opposed to ones
that are just black/brown.
>From _Horse Color_:
True blacks are rare in most breeds except the Percheron, the Fell Pony,
the North American Spanish Horse, and a few others such as the Morgan. The
Friesian is always black. There appear to be two genetically distinct
blacks, "regular" black, which can fade in the sun, and "jet black", a
glossy black which doesn't fade. Jet black is found just in a few breeds
such as Clydesdale.
***
I have been reading with interest all the messages on colours in horses.
As with any arbitrary system of classification it does little justice to
the beauty it attempts to describe. It does however do credit to people's
imagination and inventiveness.
I would like to add to the body of knowledge we have developed here and
give you the colours and definitions that are recognized by the Canadian
Horse Breeders Association (the association of people who breed horses of
the Canadian Breed), the (Canadian) Department of Agriculture and the
Canadian Livestock Records Corporation:
Black : which includes 'fading' blacks. Fading blacks are black horses
whose coats burn to a mixture of browns ranging from mahogany to
sandalwood when kept outdoors all summer long. The browns are
evenly mixed so that the coat does not appear patchy and if you look
closely the coat is an even mixture of all the different brown
colours. It can be quite beautiful. The mane, tail and legs stay
jet black as well as the coat under the mane which is protected from
the sun.
Dark Bay: Very dark brown with black mane and tail, may or may not have
some black on the legs. The coat is usually the colour of a beaver
pelt.
Bay: Reddish-brown hairs with black tips on the body and legs. The mane
and tail are black.
Chestnut: A Chestnut is any horse with a mane and tail that are not
black. The mane and tail can be dark brown to light brown, blond
to red or any mixture of the four. This designation is further
defined by the colour of the coat: clear, golden, dark, or burnt
(see next section for descriptions).
Of course the horses don't all fall neatly into these artificial
pigeonholes and their colours are sometimes hard to place, especially
the chestnuts.
There are no white or grey Canadians. The colours for the breed break
down as follows:
Mares: 48% black 23% chestnut 29% bay
Stallions: 58% black 22% chestnut 20% bay
Geldings: 41% black 22% chestnut 37% bay
There are approximately 1100 Registered Canadians in the world, most of
which are in Quebec.
2. CHESTNUT VS. SORREL
Sorrel and chestnut both generally refer to the same color, a reddish coat
with non-black points (mane, tail, legs, ears). Chestnut is the English
term, while sorrel originated in the west as the cowboy term. Both terms
are still in use, with different breed associations referring to the
lighter reds differently than the darker reds, but to complicate things
different breed associations do not agree as to what term shall cover what
shade of color.
In some breeds, such as the TB, Arabian, Morgan, and Suffolk, all shades of
red are classifed as "chestnut". There are further gradations. For
instance, the Suffolk has seven shades of chestnut: yellow, light, copper,
gold, red, dark, and liver. The Canadian has four shades: clear, golden,
dark, and burnt. The usual approach with many draft breeds is to go by the
number of easily distinguished shades of red or lighter color on the horse-
-two or fewer being a chestnut and three or more a sorrel. The Belgian
registry uses sorrel for light yellow with pale points (blond sorrels;
genetically eeffP-, flaxen-maned chestnut with pangare effect), and
chestnut for all other red and yellow shades.
In the American Quarter Horse, definitions have changed. In the past the
AQHA has called sorrel a dark clear red body color with no smuttiness
(caused by the Sty smutty gene), and chestnut those horses that are either
light clear chestnuts, or those that are obviously smutty, such as muddy
chestnuts, liver chestnuts and the like. More recently they have used
"sorrel" for light clear yellows and reds, "chestnut" for medium reds, and
"liver chestnut" for dark reds. Their current description differs from
past ones as the new directive on buckskin vs. dun will change things for
those horses of those colors in the future. I have heard that the AQHA
seems to have the further distinction that sorrels have lighter colored
legs than the body, while chestnuts have legs the same color as the body.
Generally, when both "chestnut" and "sorrel" are used, "chestnut" is
restricted to darker reds and "sorrel" to light, clear reds. Any chestnut
or sorrel can have a mane and tail that are dark (tostado), medium
(alazan), or flaxen (ruano). However, flaxen manes and tails are more
common in horses with lighter colored bodies. Typical color definitions
are given below. (From _Horse Color_ and _The Horse_)
Liver chestnut -- the darkest of the red shades, a distinctive murky
red/black. Very dark shades can look almost black.
Chestnut -- deep red coat. Variations include "dark chestnut" and
"red chestnut". Sometimes called "cherry sorrel". If the horse
has lighter colored legs than the body, this color may confusingly
be called "chestnut sorrel".
Sorrel -- clear orange coat, often with lighter colored legs. Often called
"light chestnut" in those breeds that don't use the word "sorrel".
Difficult to distinguish from a true light chestnut, but is more
yellowish, showing little or no red. Mane and tail are often the
same as the body, or can be flaxen. May appear similar to dark
palomino.
Light sorrel -- a strawberry blonde color, also called "orange".
Blond sorrel -- light sandy red with pale areas around the eyes, muzzle,
and flanks, and with pale legs. Common in American Belgians. (This
is genetically caused by the action of the P pangare gene on
a flaxen-maned chestnut, ee ff.)
Dun horses can have similar body and point colors as chestnuts and sorrels
(especially red duns), but duns typically have dorsal stripes. Horses
lighter than blond sorrel can be yellow or claybank duns (including
palomino), perlinos and cremellos, and finally whites and aged greys.
(For information about the genetic terms, see the GENETICS FAQ.)
***
The Canadian Horse Breeders Association uses these terms:
Chestnut: A Chestnut is any horse with a mane and tail that are not
black. The mane and tail can be dark brown to light brown, blond
to red or any mixture of the four. This designation is further
defined by the colour of the coat of which there are 4 recognized
colours:
Clear or pale Chestnut: The mane and tail can be any colour but black.
The body is a pale even colour, usually the colour of a palomino.
The mane and tail are usually reddish blonde, but never like a
palomino's.
Golden Chestnut: The mane and tail are any colour but black, usually
darker than Clear Chestnuts. The coat is a gold colour, sometimes
the colour of red gold, often with a reddish hue.
Dark Chestnut: The mane and tail are any colour but black, usually darker
than the coat often reddish brown. The coat ranges from a pale
copper through a rich dark copper to browns.
Burnt Chestnut: The mane and tail are any colour but black, usually dark
reddish brown to dark brown. The coat is coffee coloured to almost
black.
3. DUN VS. BUCKSKIN
Dun and buckskin are used rather messily to refer to horses with light red-
yellow, yellowish or sandy bodies, with or without black points
(mane/tail/legs/ears), with or without dorsal stripes. (Darker bodied
horses are called bays if they have black points, and chestnuts or sorrels
if they have non-black points.) However, there is a lot of disagreement
about the two terms.
In the past, buckskin registries have referred to darker shades as buckskin
and lighter ones as dun, while geneticists usually called buckskin the
lighter shade. Another definition sometimes used was that buckskin horses
have black points, and duns have brown or light points. Various registries
and dictionaries have defined one or the other as having a dorsal stripe.
The AQHA has sent out an advisory to its members that they have a new
definition of dun and buckskin, to whit: duns have dorsal stripes,
buckskins do not. Apparently, they are revising new registrations
to reflect this new definition.
The following is a compilation of information from the books "Horse Color"
and "The Horse", along with help from the net.
BUCKSKIN: clear light yellow, tan, sandy, and dark cream horses with
*black* points and *without* a dorsal stripe. This is the definition
that was used in the old American West.
(Genetically buckskin is a cremello-dilution of bay.)
DUN: This is a larger category. It includes:
a) yellow/tan horses with *black* points, *with* a dorsal stripe
(Genetically a dun-dilution of bay.)
b) yellow/tan horses with *non-black* points, with or without
a dorsal stripe. (In practice these horses usually have a
dorsal stripe anyway.) The dorsal stripe can be any shade.
(Genetically a dun-dilution or a cremello-dilution of chestnut.)
Note that yellow/tan horses with *black* points are buckskin if they
don't have a dorsal stripe, and dun if they do. (To remember this,
think of "buck skin" -- deer don't have dorsal stripes. Or think
of D=dun=dorsal.) Horses with yellow/tan coat colors and *non-black*
points used to all be called "duns" regardless of the stripe. However, the
new AQHA rulings mean that horses with non-black points without the stripe
will be called buckskin rather than dun.
The body color can be of different shades. For horses with
*black* points, without dorsal stripes (if the horse has a stripe
just change "buckskin" to "dun"):
Dark or smokey buckskin = head and neck and rump a very dark brown,
with more yellowing on the belly. (Caused by black hairs being
mixed in with the yellow, the smutty Sty gene.) Definitely not
grulla. Called "coyote dun" if there's a dorsal stripe.
Dusty buckskin = yellow-brown body color.
Peanut butter buckskin-just like it sounds-sort of a orange-tan
buckskin with black points.
Golden buckskin = the classic golden color with black points.
Oatmeal buckskin = a shade just lighter than golden, with darker
hairs on the rump and neck. But it isn't oatmeal color at all.
("Zebra dun" if striped.)
Silver or creamy buckskin = very pale gold, almost cream body color,
with black points.
For horses with *non-black* points:
Lilac dun -- an unusual rosy color with brown points, hazel eyes, and
no dorsal stripe. (Cremello-dilution of a chocolate brown horse.)
Muddy dun -- pale brownish red with brown points and head, and a brown
stripe. (Dun-dilution of a chocolate brown horse.)
Red dun -- very washed out red or yellowish-red bodies with brown, red
or flaxen points. Usually with dorsal stripe. The legs and head
are usually a darker shade of red than the body (unlike sorrel,
which can have the same body color but pale legs. Also a sorrel
wouldn't have a dorsal stripe). Variations in body shade are
called "orange dun", "apricot dun", etc.
Yellow dun -- yellow/tan body with non-black points. May have dorsal
stripe, or may not. With brown points, often called "claybank dun".
Palomino -- yellow body with cream or white points. Technically this
is a type of yellow dun. "Isabella" is a very pale cream palomino.
"Sooty palominos", also called smutty palominos, have dark hairs
mixed in with the yellow, giving a deep burnished look (due to the
action of the smutty gene, Sty).
In Europe people sometimes use "isabella" for all palominos.
Palominos are called "bright chestnut" in some breeds (Arabian).
4. DESCRIPTIONS OF SOME UNUSUAL COLORS: GRULLA, CREMELLO, PERLINO
Melanie Dresser writes [22 Aug 91]:
Can someone describe for me a few of the
odder colors that horses come in:
Grulla I've seen it, but don't know the details
on the color and how it differs from a roan.
(I think it has to do with the color of each
individual hair)
***
According to the book _Horse Color_:
Grulla (pronounced GREW-ya) is a slate-colored horse with black points and
a dark or black head. They almost always have primitive marks (withers
stripe, dorsal stripe, and zebra stripes over the knees and hocks). It is
a solid color with no white mixed in at all, unlike a blue roan, which
clearly has white mixed in. In other words each individual hair is slaty
(instead of some hairs being dark and some white, as in a roan). Overall
this color looks like a field mouse, like grey-brown. It seems to be an
ancient color; tarpans were grulla. "Grulla" is the Spanish word for the
sandhill crane, which is a grey slate-colored bird. "Mouse dun" and "blue
dun" are English terms referring to this same color.
There are some variations in grulla body color.
Slate grulla, described above, is most common. A blue slate color.
Lobo grulla or lobo dun is blacker, especially dorsally.
Olive grulla is browner, similar to smokey buckskin.
Silver grulla is creamy colored with slate blue points and head.
Genetically, grulla is caused by a dun-dilution of black or seal brown.
(Silver grulla is a dun-dilution combined with a cremello-dilution.)
***
CREMELLO I think this may be what my first pony was.
He was white in the winter and a pale palomino
in the summer. (Dart was the greatest pony :-))
That's cremello all right. Cremello is a genetically a chestnut horse that
is carrying two c-cr dilution genes. Each gene reduces the amount of
pigment in the hair shafts. One dilution gene in a genetically chestnut
horse gives you palomino (or claybank dun if the mane and tail are darker),
and two gives you cremello, which is basically a very pale palomino.
Cremellos are not pure white but cream or off-white (or even pale palomino
as your pony was in summer) with a white or off-white mane and tail and
blue eyes. They are sometimes called Type-A albino but they're not true
albinos.
PERLINO
A related color is perlino, which is a double c-cr dilution of a
genetically bay or seal brown horse. (A single dilution gives buckskin,
yellowish with black mane and tail.) Perlinos also have an off-white body,
but typically have a rusty mane and tail, with blue eyes.
See next question for more on palominos.
5. HOW TO BREED PALOMINOS: GENETICS OF PALOMINO, CREMELLO, CHESTNUT
Question from Kitty Cummings:
>Can you give me some idea as to producing palominos and what crosses are
>most sure to give palomino? I've bred buckskins, red duns and grullas
>but I've never produced a palomino.
Response from Tracy:
Palomino and buckskin (true buckskin as opposed to dun buckskins)
are caused by the incompletely recessive c-cr gene. This is the gene
that causes cremellos and perlinos. When both of the genes at this locus
are CC then the horse is an ordinary non-creme, non-palomino. When both
genes are c-cr c-cr then the horse if bay genetically will actually be
perlino (creme to white body color, reddish points, blue eyes) and if
chestnut genetically it will be cremello (creme to white body color,
off-white points, blue eyes). If one C and one c-cr gene are present
then the bay horse will look buckskin (yellow body color, black points,
no stripe) and if chestnut genetically the horse will look palomino (yellow
body color, flaxen to white mane and tail). Your best chance therefore
of producing palomino would be to breed a chestnut mare to a cremello
stallion or vice versa, this would give 100% palomino coloring.
****
>I've always heard that a palomino bred to a chestnut will produce palomino
>50 % of the time, perhaps Tracy can clarify...
You're absolutely correct. Palomino is by definition Cc-cr ee and
chestnut is CC ee, so the 1/2 of the offspring will inherit the palomino
c-cr gene plus a C gene from the chestnut therefore they would be palomino,
the other 1/2 of the offspring would be CC ee chestnut colored. The only
way to achieve 100% palomino color is to mate a cremello c-cr c-cr ee horse
with a chestnut CC ee horse.
6. PAINTS AND PINTOS: TOBIANO, OVERO, TOVERO, SABINO, MEDICINE HAT
The two most common paint patterns are tobiano and overo. They are
controlled by genes at different loci, so it is possible to get a horse who
is both tobiano and overo -- a tovero.
TOBIANO:
"is apparently dominant and is characterized by white
over the back and up the legs, and by a normally marked head."
OVERO:
"apparently requires a pair of recessive genes and is
characterized by color over the back and on the legs and by
much white on the head."
Dan Duval clarifies:
Generally, overo is a colored horse with some white while a tobiano is
a white horse with some color. But don't count on this, since some
lines (such as Far Ute Keno and his progeny) are overo, but display
more white than color, and I know of tobiano lines which are covered
in color.
To be specific, overos tend to have color along the length of the spine
between the withers and the top of the croup. They also tend to have
color on all four legs (though not always.) Blue eyes (or wall-eyed)
are an overo trait exclusively. Overos often have one or more white
hooves (but again, don't count on it.) The color on overos tend to have
an irregular border (sort of like a map of Norway) and irregular shapes.
The color on overos are often "bordered", where colored hairs and white
hairs are mixed in a region 3-10mm around the edge of the colored spots.
Tobianos most often have white crossing the spine. The legs are mostly
white (usually only one or two will have color and this mostly at the
top.) Tobianos do not have blue eyes (though toveros might.) [Tobianos tend
to have "ordinary" looking heads, colored with maybe a star or stripe, in
contrast to overos which tend to have very white, "exotic" heads.] Tobianos
usually have all-black hooves (but again, don't depend upon this.)
Tobiano colors tend to be roughly regular shapes with clean, sharp borders
(no bordering, no "maps of Norway"). I don't recall seeing a palomino
tobiano, but I suppose they are possible.
The final classification is tovero. These are overo-tobiano mixes and --
boy -- do they cause classification problems. They have characteristics of
both strains.
Overo and tobiano are distinct genetic types -- different genes express
the characteristics, rather than different selections within the same
genes.
***
Now an easy way to remember the difference in Paint color:
OVERO: never white OVER the back. Never-over.
TOBIANO: white goes over the back. tobiano="top albino".
Kind of like imagine a brown horse. Pour paint over his back and
let it run down the sides and legs. TOBIANO
Now turn him on his back and pour paint on his belly and let it
run toward his back. OVERO
***
SABINO is a different white pattern, controlled by a completely different
gene than either tobiano or overo. Sabinos tend to have completely white
legs and big blazes. (Think of those Clydesdales with their big white
stockings.) A sabino with a medium amount of white has white legs, an
apron face, and white extending up onto the body from the belly. The white
patches on the body are very ragged and flecked-looking. A very white
sabino can be almost completely white, often with color left only on the
ears, chest, and maybe on the flank and dock of the tail. Sabino is common
in Clydesdales, where it is erroneously called "roan".
SPLASHED WHITE is yet another white pattern, controlled by yet another
gene. Like sabino, these horses usually have white legs, bellies, and
faces. Large white patches extend up onto the body from underneath.
Unlike sabino, the white patches have clean, non-ragged borders. This
pattern occurs in some European breeds such as the Finnish Draft Horse and
the Welsh Pony.
MEDICINE HAT is a horse that is mostly white but with colored ears (a "war
bonnet") and often colored eye rings. They can also have "shields" of
color on the chest, flank and along the topline. These horses were thought
to have supernatural powers by some Native American tribes. This color
pattern can occur in very white paint horses of various genetic
backgrounds, particularly overo, tovero, and sabino.
***
Genetic questions, answered by Tracy
1) overo x tobiano -- what will foal be?
In such a case one would need to know the colors of their parents in order
to find out whether the tobiano possibly harbored an overo gene. If not,
then a paint offspring would likely be tobiano; a solid-colored offspring
is also a possibility. Either way the foal would be an overo carrier, and
when bred to an overo could produce overo foals in the next generation.
2) Grey-looking appy filly (may be grey or roan) x few spot leopard stud --
what are chances of nice appy foals?
If she is a roan with spots she will definitely throw appys, including a
fifty percent chance for a few spot appy. If she is a grey then you
probably have only a fifty percent chance for a true non-greying appy and
a fifty percent chance for another grey.
3) Leopard colt -- worth buying?
>I also have a chance to buy a leopard colt, have not seen him yet, out of a
>leopard stud, and solid bay mare. Do you think he would throw color or
>forget him. His sire's pedigree is unknown, dam's side is pretty much
>solids, chestnuts, bays, roans.. Any help would be appreciated.
If the leopard colt is brightly patterned and non-greying then he will
throw color about 50 % of the time when bred to non-appys and 75% of the
time when bred to other brightly colored appys. Keep in mind conformation
is as important as color. If he is a few spot Appaloosa then he will throw
color 100% of the time, although this is unlikely unless his dam is also an
appy.
4) Breeding Appy/Warmblood cross for color?
Yes, breeding a few spot Appaloosa to a warmblood would pretty much
guarantee a bright Appy type coat pattern. An interesting note, the
Appaloosa color pattern used to be a favored one for harness horses,
especially warmbloods in Europe, Dalmation dogs were bred to match the
Appys. Also I have seen a photograph of a Lippizaner/Appy cross who was
1989 USDF Horse of the Year at Grand Prix. Wonderful mover, noted as
having the best piaffe and passage of any horse the judges who judged him
had seen, but he was kind of ugly, with a big Lippizaner head and pink skin
with a few dark skin spots under his white coat. You see he was a grey.
So when you breed your Appy/Warmblood cross choose a non-grey for the
Warmblood part, that way the pattern will not grey out.
7. WHITE, ALBINO, AND LETHAL WHITE GENES
There are lots of horses that *appear* white but few are truly white (white
throughout life, with pink skin).
1) Aged grey horses that have completely greyed out can look completely
white. However, they were born with some other color. Even when
white they still have black skin.
One of the earlier posters on horse color referred to Arabs as having a
lot of white horses. Actually Arabs are NEVER white. All grey Arabians
will eventually turn white with age, some faster than others. Although
there are a few instances of Arabians being born "white", these horses
would still be registered as grey because they have the black skin.
Therefore, although there are many white-looking Arabians, these are
in actuality grey horses that have turned white with age.
2) Cremellos are distinctly off-white rather than true white. A double
dilution of chestnut.
3) Perlinos are also off-white, with rusty points. A double dilution of bay.
4) True white horses can occur in Paint horses (tobiano, overo, tovero,
or sabino) that happen to be born with a lot of white and hardly
any color. All-white overo foals almost always die. It is unclear
if this is inherent to the overo pattern, or whether it is a specific
lethal gene that some but not all overos carry.
5) Another type of true white is "dominant white". This is an all-white
horse, white from birth, with pink skin and brown, hazel, or blue eyes.
These horses are called American White Horses and have a registry.
(They used to be called American Albinos, but the name has changed.)
This is caused by a lethal dominant gene. Heterozygous horses
survive and are white, but homozygous white foals die in utero.
No true albino gene has ever been discovered in horses. True albino means
the absence of *all* color, even in the eyes. The "true whites" known in
horses -- all-white paints and dominant whites -- still have dark or blue
eyes instead of the albino pink eye. (I have been told that paint breeders
call the all-white overo foals "true albinos" but they're not.) This is
strange as albinos have been found in almost every other species.
LETHAL WHITE #1 -- All-white overos
In the Paint world, there is a genetic disorder of all-white foals
called "lethal white". These foals cannot absorb water, for some
reason, and die within a few days of birth. So the last thing a Paint
breeder wants to see is an all-white foal.
More information on lethal overo white, from Tracy:
There are actually several "lethal white" genes which everyone may or may
not be aware of. The lethal white that has been discussed extensively on
the net is a situation that occurs in paints, particularly in Overo paints.
It is actually not due to a specific lethal gene, but rather to the overo
pattern itself [this is controversial -- see below for another view]. For
instance, unlike Tobianos, you cannot select for how much white or color
you get when breeding Overos. Overos range from almost solid colored to
nearly white or white. It is these white foals that suffer the intestinal
problems that lead to miscarriage or death shortly after birth. A nearly
solid Overo bred to a nearly solid Overo can have a white or nearly white
foal; conversely a largely (though not totally) white Overo bred to a
largely white Overo can have a solid horse whose only indication that it is
paint is high white on the legs and a lot of facial white. The key factor
in how much white is present in Overo babies appears to be womb
temperature. Also, the gene responsible for Overo coloring is recessive,
meaning that their must be one contributed from each parent to make an
Overo baby. Now things get complicated, because Tobiano coloring and
Sabino coloring are dominant genes and it only takes one of those to
produce their color. Many medicine hat paints are Sabinos. Sabino and
Tobiano nearly or totally white babies do not die at birth unlike Overo
babies. However, because breeders have crossed all gene types together, a
horse that looks like a Tobiano or Sabino may carry an Overo gene and when
bred to another horse that carries an Overo gene may produce an Overo baby,
and can rarely produce an all or mostly white Overo that will die soon
after. By the way, the other way to produce the medicine hat pattern is
with a horse that is both Tobiano and Overo, so called Toveros.
***
More information on the lethal overo white, from Sara White:
Just thought I'd add what I could find about the lethal white foal syndrome
that occurs in foals of overo parents. I am getting my information from
The Horse by Evans, Second edition, 1990.
It appears that there is one locus (physical location on a chromosome where
a gene is located) that primarily controls the overo color pattern (this
is completely different from the tobiano locus). At this locus there are
3 possible alleles, or different forms of the gene, which are O, o, and oe
(this should be o superscript e). Every foal inherits from its parents two
alleles, one from each parent. These may be the same (for example OO) or
they may be different (for example Oo). The O allele is dominant, and the
o and oe are recessive. If the O allele is present, the foal will not show
overo markings.
SO--A normal overo horse has a genotype of oo or ooe. However, if a foal
has a genotype of oeoe, it has lethal white foal syndrome and will die. Any
horse that has the oe gene (whether it is solid colored and has a genotype
of Ooe, or is a pinto and is ooe) is a carrier for the syndrome and, if
bred to another carrier, may produce a lethal white foal.
What this means is that there is no set ratio for the number of lethal
white foals produced in overo crosses. If neither parent is a carrier,
then none of the foals will have the syndrome. If both parents are
carriers, then 1/4 of the foals will have the syndrome, and another 1/2
will be carriers. If a carrier stallion is bred to several mares, some of
whom are carriers and some of whom are not, the percent of lethal white
foals produced will depend on the percent of the mares that were carriers;
the more carrier mares, the more lethal white foals.
Sorry if this letter ended up sounding a little too much like a genetics
lecture, but I hope the information is helpful.
LETHAL WHITE #2 -- Dominant White
Info from Tracy:
The Dominant White gene is a lethal white. It is a dominant gene that
produces horses that are pure white with pink skin and brown eyes. It is
NOT a true albino as pigment is present in the eyes, however, horses of
this color are registered in the American Albino Registry, which is now
called the American White Horse Registry because of the confusion over the
genes involved. This gene is not associated with paint color and babies
that are born white live and carry only one dominant white gene as the
homozygous form die in utero. Only a Dominant White can produce a Dominant
White and the ratio is approximately 2/3 of the babies will be white.
Another color gene which is lethal in the homozygous form is Roan.
Yes, most of you don't know it, but there are only heterozygous roans out
there. The homozygous form does not exist, it dies in utero, probably
early in pregnancy.
8. GREY VS. ROAN, FLEABITTEN GREY
Both grey and roan horses have white hairs mixed in with the base color.
However, roan horses are born roan, and the number of white hairs does not
change much throughout life (it may change seasonally but after a year
should be back where it started). In contrast, grey is progressive. A
grey horse typically is born solid-colored, gets more and more white hairs
with each coat, and with age will turn completely white. The rate of
greying varies a lot; some horses grey out very fast, some slowly. Another
way to tell grey from roan is that roan horses usually have dark heads,
legs, manes, and tails, while grey horses usually go grey all over (but not
always; some grey horses keep a dark mane and tail).
Grey horse owners need to be aware of the increased susceptability grey
horses have to "grey horse melanoma", a form of skin cancer.
Grey is caused by a dominant gene, G.
Roan is caused by the gene Rn. It is a homozygous lethal. Foals with
one roan allele and one non-roan (Rnrn) live, and are roan. Foals
with two roan alleles (RnRn) always die in utero.
It is possible to have a horse who is both roan and grey.
Grey horses often show dapples as they grey out. A grey horse without
dapples is called "iron grey", especially if the base color is dark.
Roans typically don't have dapples. "Silver dapple" is an unrelated
gene that causes dilution of the base color, with dapples, and with
a flaxen mane and tail. A silver dapple horse doesn't have a mixture of
white and solid hairs, like a grey or roan horse; rather, each hair is
lighter colored. It is non-progressive. The silver dapple gene is rare in
most breeds, but common in Shetlands.
Roans are given different names based on what the base color is. Some
common names are red roan (base color red bay), strawberry roan (base
color sorrel), blue roan (base color black), and purple roan (base color
mahogany bay). "Rose grey" is used both for roan chestnuts and greying
chestnuts. Sometimes roans have "corn" spots of darker color, instead of
having the white hairs mixed evenly in. These roans are called red corn,
blue corn, etc. A further variant is "silvering" or "varnish roan" in
which there are darker areas over the joints and bony prominences.
***
Question: What color offspring can grey horses have?
Answer from Tracy:
Grey covers up the base color. Let us say that base color is bay,
well, bay can hide a recessive black gene (Aa), and the horse might also
have a recessive chestnut gene (Ee), so depending on what the grey is bred
to you could have a chestnut, a bay, a black, or another grey, or numerous
other colors. Remember to look at your horse's breed and parentage --
certain breeds don't have some color genes available to them. For example
Arabians don't have Z silver dapple or E-d jet black, and b chocolate brown
is a tremendous rarity, so those genes are unnecessary to consider. My
[Arabian] mare's line has had nothing but greys, bays, and chestnuts for
many generations, black was known eight or ten generations back but hasn't
shown up since then so I won't need to bother checking for other colors
such as overo genes or cremello genes when I breed her to another of her
line. Since I am interested in black I would want to see if the sire had
a line that included black genes. One more thing, the likelihood of a
recessive gene showing up in subsequent generations decreases with each new
generation that does not show it, but as in the case of black coloring, it
never completely goes away.
*****
FLEA-BITTEN GREY
Tracy sez:
Flea-bitten grey is a version of grey where some pigment cells
become reactivated and little dots or speckles or flecks of the original
coat color start growing back into the white coat. The fleabitten color
can become so total that the horse will begin to resemble the chestnut
bay or black that they once were. There is probably a genetic mechanism
for flea-bitten grey that has not been discovered yet as some lines of
horses, Egyptian Arabians come to mind, are known for producing heavily
flea-bitten greys. The extent of the flea-bitten color may also be
controlled for genetically, as some lines produce very minimally
flea-bitten horses whereas in others the flea-bitten color comes in at an
early age and becomes very heavy. Again the mechanism is unknown. It is
probably a modifier gene such as the one or ones which control how fast the
greying process takes place. I have an entirely unstudied theory that
flea-bitten color can at least be limited in extent by keeping the horse
out of the sun. However, if a horse is going to get flea-bitten it will
get at least some flea-bitten color regardless of where it is kept.
***
Question: is this horse grey or white?
Melanie writes:
Quest is silver white with pink skin, but he does have
2 spots, each about the size of a quarter and small
varnish marks on the fronts of his foreleg pasterns.
He has some of the characteristic mottling here and
there under his white hair, but not a lot.
He is a few spot leopard, but is he still a true
white (I know he's not a grey)? any opinions?
Sue Bishop writes:
No, he's not really a true white. Especially since he has the mottling.
I may be wrong though.
I (KH) write:
I agree he isn't a true white. Technically a true white has no color
anywhere at all, and has pink skin all over. So Quest's two spots and
mottling disqualify him from being totally a true white. But it sounds
like he is pretty darn close.
9. "BLOODY SHOULDERS" AND OTHER INTERESTING ARABIAN PATTERNS
Tracy writes:
Bloody shoulders, or handprints, or bloody marks on Arabs is a
unique feature to the Arabian breed apparently (though part-bred
descendants can also inherit this). Bloody marks are areas of pigmenting
that never grey out on a grey horse. They can be quite extensive or they
can be very small. The genetic mechanism is again unknown but is unique to
Arabians and said to show antique or ancient blood. The occasionally white
body spotting that shows up in Arabs and leg runs, white leg markings that
continue in a streak up the leg sometimes past the hock, are also said
to show old blood and may be related to the Sb sabino gene or it may be
something unique. If related to the sabino gene it may explain the
very rare parti-colored horses that are occassionally born to purebred
Arabian parents.
10. ZEBRA STRIPES
Many horses carry "primitive marks", which can include a dorsal stripe, a
withers stripe (like a donkey), and zebra stripes. Zebra stripes are
transverse stripes on the legs, usually seen just above the knees and hocks
of a dark-legged horse. Most wild equines carry these marks and it is
probably a very ancient pattern. The marks are caused by the dun-dilution
gene. Some of the western breeds show primitive marks quite often, such as
the Quarter Horse and the Spanish Mustang. They are also seen in some
European breeds such as the Fjord.
***
Jodie Gilmore writes:
>My mare Mira is coal black with white markings in the winter, or in
>non-sunny areas of the country. When the sun shines on her, and when she
>sheds out, she has a black butt, and belly and legs, but her back and neck
>and shoulders are a dark buckskin color. Also, she gets "tiger stripes" on
>her ears, face, and sometimes on her shoulders. She has SOME white hairs
>on her barrel, but they don't seem to be multiplying at all. She also has
>an isolated black spot on the back of one of her white pasterns.
>So is she just a boring "black/bay", despite the tiger stripes? (I've
>never seen another horse with stripes on its ears.) Or would you
>call her a black/buckskin? Or maybe a black brindle?
Hmm, some black horses, those who are aa blacks as opposed to E-d jet
blacks, get sunburned (i.e. they get fried) in the summer time and their
black hair fades on the most sun-exposed areas to a reddish brown color.
So this could be what is happening with her. The zebra stripes on her ears
and shoulders are probably due to rubbing. She could be black/bay but I
don't think so as you do not mention brown or tan areas on her flanks or
muzzle. D dunning or P pangare genes seems to cause the color to be
lighter in the winter than the summer so again it seems she is a black that
gets sunburned.
Tracy and everybody
11) FOAL COLOR AND ADULT COLOR
>Of course when you register a foal and they are solid colored at birth,
>the papers state solid color, in the Miniatures, they don't make color
>permanent till 5 years of age, and many people don't bother to change color
>on their papers till then. So this can be very detrimental when trying to
>determine color of parents prior to 5 years old.
This is very interesting and I think wise of this registry as so many
horses are of uncertain color that it takes a while to tell what color they
will be. With Arabians there are a few hints (Arab foals should be
registered before they are 6 months old or it costs much more, although
color changes are possible at any time applications must be accompanied by
photos) which can indicate some things about color: 1st no horse can be a
grey unless one parent is grey, 2nd chestnuts and bays are sometimes of
uncertain color at birth (look to new hair coming in on the muzzle and
around the eyes to get an idea of the adult coat), 3rd grey hairs are often
first seen above the eyes or on the eyelids when the horse is a few days
old, 4th a horse that is born black almost always changes color usually to
grey, 5th a horse that will be black is usually born a mousy color and
sheds out to black. There are a few more. My filly was born a beautiful
blood bay color. We only knew she would be grey because we saw a few
microscopic white hairs on her eyelids the next day. Even after she
started getting grey in her coat her bright bay color was so overwhelming
that even at 8 months old I had people look at her and say "Are you sure
she's turning grey?" Now at 16 months her mane has lots of silver hair and
they don't ask that question any more.
12) FUN WITH GENETICS: MY MARE IS A CHESTNUT GREYING ROANING FLEA-BITTEN
VARNISH-SPOTTED LEOPARD MEDICINE-HAT TOVERO FLAXEN-MANED APPY WITH A DORSAL
STRIPE AND ZEBRA LEGS. WHAT WILL HER FOAL LOOK LIKE?
Case #1: Kitty Cumming's greying chestnut appy mare.
>I have a mare (9yrs.) that was born a bright chestnut with just a small
>white blanket (no spots) over her hips. When she began to shed her baby
>coat, there was a lot of white mixed in (a greying gene - G), but also,
>small copper spots appeared all over her body (today she looks nearly
>like a leopard with varnish marks). I'm assuming that - using a
>transparency effect - that she had not only a greying gene, but also a
>gene for leopard type spots over her body and that the spots really
>didn't appear, but were actually there the entire time, but weren't
>visible in the original chestnut base color. When the greying kicked
>in, replacing the base color, the spots then became visible. Since the
>greying didn't affect the spots - they must be governed by something
>the greying cannot effect. This mare's mother is a true red roan, but
>with a grey gene - she is still pretty roan, but lighter than at birth
>(she's 22 now). The sire of my mare is a leopard with strong leopard
>breeding (Prince Plaudit).
Well, the first thing you know (besides the fact that your mare is from
racing lines, I believe Plaudit was a race horse of some merit) is that
your mare has two ee genes otherwise she wouldn't have been born chestnut.
She also carries an Appaloosa gene which allows the pattern to show
through, but since she's greying out that pattern will eventually
dissappear. I suspect she also has an R roaning gene because of how the
spots stood out from the background for a while. She has at least two
pattern genes: the appy pattern genes can be carried by solid horses but
won't be expressed unless the horse is either Apl apl or a few spot
appaloosa. There are numerous pattern genes (at least eight patterns are
suspected) -- your mare carries a blanket pattern gene and a leopard spot
gene. Also she has two flaxen genes ff indicated by the flaxen mane. So
far we have your mare as: ee ff Gg Rr Apl apl and since I am not sure
whether the pattern genes are dominant or recessive we'll give her at least
one blanket gene and one leopard gene. (What a neat horse, you should
write to Dr. Sponenberg and tell him about her.)
>Now, I bred this mare last year. I bred her to a grey QH who has strong
>grey, black and what I call near black (even darker than a seal brown -
>they look black except upon very close examination of the muzzle and
>when the sunlight hits them just right) breeding. What I got, basically
Note: dark almost black is still considered seal brown, it is
genetically black with the pangare gene causing the light areas
on muzzle and flank
>surprised me. I got a solid chestnut colt, with a chestnut mane and
>tail with some blond highlights (mom has a very blond mane and tail). I
>did expect more color at birth. I an convinced that this colt will grey
>out. He does seem to be changing much slower than mom did though. As
I agree he will grey out, the grey gene causes greying at faster
or slower rates based on other genes that can be selected for, but in
this case I think that this is another indication that mom had roaning
helping her to look grey faster.
>he's losing his baby coat (he's 4 months now) there is some roaning
>around his blaze and some white hairs around the base of his mane (his
>mom was already making dramatic changes as she shed her baby coat and was
>the color she is now by the time she was 2 yrs.) I am sure he will
>gradually turn grey; whether he has any other body spots like mom, I'll
The description you have of him already having some white hairs
on his face confirms the grey gene, generally greys will start greying
at the face which will always be a little whiter than the rest of the
body, whereas roaning generally is not as heavy or is non-existent on
the face.
>have to wait until he greys more. Mom is rebred to same grey stud for
>'92 - so we'll see what we get.
>Any thoughts on how this colt might turn or what I'll get next year?
>Also, this colt thus far has some future stallion potential. I'm
>curious as to what his color producing potential is and whether he'll
>produce any strong color other than greying. App/QH crosses are a big
>market and a good stallion will have to throw color even out of QH
>mares. What do you think?
>Kitty Cummings
From your description the stallion is G- (-means we don't what
gene is paired with this one). What gene is paired with this can make
a difference to you as a GG horse throws nothing but greys, not very
useful for making colorful appaloosas. If the stallion is Gg on the
other hand then there is a 1 in 4 chance that a mating between him
and your mare won't be grey, 3 in 4 that they will be grey. This
stallion definitely harbors an e chestnut gene, otherwise your colt
wouldn't be chestnut. Since mom is Apl apl then the chances are the
reason your colt hasn't shown spots or pattern is that he did not
inherit one of the base apl appaloosa spotting genes from her, thus
any pattern genes he has would remain hidden only to show up when he
is mated to an Appaloosa mare, especially a few spot, but under those
circumstances he could produce either a blanket or a leopard pattern
depending upon what he inherited from mom, both patterns in one horse
are possible. I believe from what you have said that he has one grey
gene, not two, as horses who carry two GG genes tend to grey out very
fast. If that is the case then there is a 50% chance that he can
produce a non-grey if he is bred to a non-grey. He also carries the
potential for a black, however that won't happen if he is bred to
a chestnut as chestnut covers up black and bay. So far your colt is:
a- ee Gg rr Apl Apl (meaning non-Appy) and probably carries one blanket
and/or one leopard gene (he definitely does if these are recessive genes).
He may or may not carry the pangare gene which the stallion may carry, we
don't know nor will we unless your colt produces a seal brown.
If I were you I would breed this colt to nothing but Appy's with
color who are non-grey that would up his chances of producing color.
Also if you want black don't breed to a chestnut or chestnut Appy because
he will definitely produce chestnut then (of course if you like chestnut
that's great). P.S. he may also be able to produce bay when bred to
a non-chestnut, black is tough to get. If he spots out later (please
excuse my ignorance in this area and enlighten me if you have time) then he
will be shown to carry one apl gene and can pass that along 50% of the
time to both spotted and non-spotted horses.
The Sponenberg book is the only really good book on horse color
genetics that I've ever found, it was published in 1971 and I borrowed a
copy from the University of Arizona library and xeroxed almost half the
book. It is called "Horse Color" by D. Phillip Sponenberg and Bonnie V.
Beaver, I believe it was published by the Texas A & M University Press.
I found a good section on Appaloosa color in another book that was being
used as a text for a horse management class at Pima College a few years
ago but I do not recall the author or name of the book (sorry). Good
Luck to you and your horses. By the way your mare has a good chance
of producing a non-greying appaloosa if bred to a non-grey stallion,
50% chance non-grey, 25% chance non-grey Appaloosa, but as you point
out color is not everything, conformation is very important and should
override color choices in many cases.
Tracy and everybody
***
Tracy,
Thanks for the response - I had once taken a genetics course in college,
but had kind of gotten away from it. Now, though, this discussion on
color has really peaked my interest again. Though appy genetics are
complicated - I think it would be neat to not only breed for
conformation and working ability (as these two are certainly more
important than color), but to also selectively breed for and predict
color.
I'm still assuming that the greying gene doesn't always affect patterns
as my mare (an I've seen others) definitely greyed, but the leopard spot
pattern left behind has not changed since she was 2 yrs. In other
words, she did all her chameleon stuff before she was two and has not
turned another odd hair since (she's now 9, so I don't anticiapate any
further change). So with my colt, I'll have to wait for the greying to
take place to see if there is another underlying coat pattern like mom's.
>From what you said, I think I'll probably get a foal next year that is
very similar to this year's.
In '92, I will breed this mare to a dun leopard - I think when I get the
book, I'll have to spend some time predicting what I'll get. Care to
take a stab at it?
I would like, in my breeding program to produce duns, buckskins, red
duns, grullas, palominos and blacks (I know this will be tough) - I'd
like to get away from chestnuts, bays, etc (too common). I realize I've
got my work cut out for me, as obviously I've got breeding stock that
already carry alot of chestnut and greying gene and as these horses are
good stock pedigree, conformation and working ability -wise, I'm not
going to run out and scrap them.
[see palomino section for more on this subject]
Thanks for your help Tracy - I find this whole subject fascinating!
Kitty Cummings
Kit-Mar Appaloosas
Ritter Hof German Shepherds
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Kitty writes:
>In '92, I will breed this mare to a dun leopard - I think when I get the
>book, I'll have to spend some time predicting what I'll get. Care to
>take a stab at it?
Ok, I'll give it a try from memory as I don't have your original
post in front of me. Your mare has a 50% chance of producing a grey,
because she carries one grey gene, sorry you can't get away from that.
The remaining 50% can be divided as follows: 12 1/2% chance of a few
spot Appy, 25% chance of a brightly patterned (very probably leopard)
Appy) 12 1/2% chance of a solid colored horse. The dun gene is dominant
so if the sire is carrying only one dun D gene then he has a 50% chance
of producing dunning (which if the horse is also grey will grey out,
if the horse does not grey should be quite striking), if he is carrying
two dun genes DD then all versions whether they grey or not will be
initially dun. You don't say whether he is a red dun leopard or some
other shade so I can't speculate on that. Also since your mare
is also a roan Rr then 50% of time roaning will affect the
colors. So a weird but not impossible horse could be a red dun roan
leopard appy which has a 50% chance of greying or not. P.S. a blanket
pattern is also possible since your mare carries that as well. At
the opposite end a solid-colored horse that greys out is also possible.
>Thanks for your help Tracy - I find this whole subject fascinating!
So do I. Remember the more colors you add in the more
complicated things get. Also, if your mare is definitely greying
then the spots will eventually grey out too, however the skin under
them will stay dark and will probably be visible under the white
hair coat. I have seen a photo of a Lippizzaner/Appy cross that
looked exactly like that.
Tracy and everybody
****
Case #2: Janet's interesting-looking dun horse
Janet Ashnault writes:
>It sounds like there are some color experts out there - perhaps you could
>assure me that my horse is indeed a dun.
> Here's basically what he looks like. The front half of his body, believe
>it or not, can best be described as the colors of a Butterfinger candy
>bar. Looking closely, you can see the hairs are orange and brown. He fades
>nicely to just the chocolate brown on the back half of his body. His legs
>have some dark brown highlights down low except for the back left which
>fades into a golden dun color!
> His mane has an equal distribution of black, white and flaxen
>hair and at a quick glance - you might call it gray. His tail seems to
>have every color hair in the rainbow, but is basically dark orangey brown
>with a beautiful flaxen highlight.
> He has a faint, faint dorsal stripe.
> I don't know if this will help any, but this horse has brown eyes with
>huge gold flecks in them!
> To top it off - his winter coat comes in as such a light dun color -
>it's hard to tell him apart from a gray pasture buddy when they're way out
>into the field.
> I've gotten many compliments on his color (and eyes!) and mostly I just
>say he's a dun. Someone once suggested perhaps chocolate palomino??
>All I know is that with all his color changes during the year, it's sorta
>like having several different horses -- all with the same great
>personality!
Hi, Janet, yes it sounds very much like your horse is some variety of dun.
There are several interesting possibilities as to his genetic backround
from your description. He could be a chocolate brown aa bb with a D- dun
gene causing him to lighten on the body to that golden color you mention,
and I suspect this is the case because of the (I assume) light? brown eyes
with the gold flecks in them. This color for eyes seems to go hand in hand
with the bb brown eumelanin color, as does pinkish grey skin, instead of
dark grey skin (you might check his skin color for me). The bb gene is the
same one that causes pink-skinned palominos by the way. If this horse is
indeed aa bb D- this color is sometimes called muddy dun, not very accurate
considering how handsome he sounds. The white in his mane in this case
might come from Z the silver dapple gene or it might be something wierd and
uncharacterized.
The second possibility is that he is what is sometimes termed a copper
dun, which is a liver chestnut with the dunning gene on top of it. In this
case he would be D- ee Sty- and probably ff flaxen gene. Without knowing
anything about his parents or seeing a good color photo of him it seems
impossible to tell for certain. He certainly sounds quite lovely.
Tracy and Bruce (beautiful man) and
Cachet (6 year old grey Arabian mare)
and Mithril (1 year old grey Arabian
filly) and The Cats
*****
Case #3: a "grey" appy filly with apparently non-grey parents
>I am buying a grey (3 mos filly) out of a chestnut
>appy, and a red roan appy mare. Both parents have a leopard spotted sire,
>and the grandsire on the dam's side was also a leopard.
If both the parents were non-greys (gg) this filly cannot possibly be
a grey. The rule is that only a grey G- can produce a grey. This is
absolute. If she is indeed out of the parents mentioned, then:
a) she is not really a grey but a roan. Check her head and compare to the
body -- greys generally have more white on the head or at least the same
amount as on the body, roans usually have less white on the head than the
rest of them. or b) one of her parents, probably the red roan appy mare, is
really a grey but not changing color very fast, or c) this filly is not
sired by that leopard spotted sire, or d) he is the grey, but again not
greying out very fast, check his spots for white hairs mixed in.
>She is beginning to mottle out in the mouth area, has some sclera around
>the eyes, and she does have some spots. I was hoping she would roan out
>either chestnut or sorrel, but she may stay grey, and just white out.
If she is actually a roan, then her color will change seasonally but
not much when compared year to year. She is just now getting her adult
coat and that may be somewhat different from the baby coat, so that may be
making you think she is grey. Check for white hairs mixed into the base
coat on the face.
******
>Tracy:
>On the filly out of two appy parents, the lady said she thinks she may
>be a blue roan, since she has not been body clipped yet, could prove
>interesting. Her granddam on the sires side is believed to be grey, as
this
>color appears every so often in the foals. The filly is out of these two
>appy parents, I have seen her nurse etc, and she only has the one stud.
Grey can only come in direct line of descent from parent to offspring
because it is a dominant gene G, it does not skip generations. Therefore if
it shows up in the sire's offspring, either he is a grey who is being
mistaken for a roan, or the mares he has been bred to are greys. Roan R is
also a dominant gene, but here I think that there is a lot of confusion as
to which horses are greys and which are roans. I suspect both that roans
are being mistaken for grey and that greys are being mistaken for roans.
Again roaning is not progressive. It changes only a little seasonally,
meaning that the horse may be darker in the summer and lighter in the
winter but the next summer will be dark again. By contrast greys lighten
progressively with each new coat being shed out. Some greys lighten very
fast and are obvious, others take quite a long time to grey out but even
they have more white hairs in their coats with each shedding, and they
nearly always have more white on their faces than roans who have
comparatively little white on the face vs. the body.
>Now onto the stallion. I did some research on him last night. His sire was
>a spotted leopard, his dam's pedigree says she was a grey (ugh), but when
>talking to the owner, she seems to think the dam eventually roaned out.
>This stallion is just starting to spot out at 2 years of age.
This is very confusing--roans generally are born that way. If the
horse keeps adding additional white hairs to the coat it should actually be
a grey. Perhaps someone more familiar with Appys can help here. But from
the information I have and the description of the dam, I think she was a
grey. If the stallion is just starting to get white hairs in his coat then
again from the info I have he is a grey.
Of course if this line greys very slowly it may not matter. You may
only see totally white individuals only at very advanced age. But I think
it is important to know which genes you are dealing with here.
>Guess this stud's chances of throwing all appys are not greatly reduced if
>his dam was indeed a grey. His conformation is excellent, I would not have
>considered him otherwise, and he has a super temperament, easy to handle.
>What are your thoughts now, think I should try him, even with my solid
>colored mares? He really is nice, and hate to miss the chance of getting
>him, and then later find out he does throw all appys...
>Thanks again, wait to hear your suggestion on this.
>Kathy.
I'm big on conformation and temperment, but if you are looking for all
Appys then perhaps you should look a little farther. However, many Appys
that eventually turn grey have spots or varnish roaning as well and if they
don't turn grey fast will look Appy for quite a while. Also Appys that do
turn grey often can be seen as Appys since the dark pigmented spots stand
out next to the pink skin, this can be seen under a white hair coat (not
very pretty, but still Appy). Again conformation and temperment should
weigh very heavily in your decision but you know what you are going for and
if it's color then that may make a difference.
Tracy and everybody
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