Great Hunter Debate

The Great Hunter Debate began on Jan. 25, 1996

(Classic discussions from JRJ's 1st year. Margot is now a junior at Berkeley, Gabby is a soph at Bennington, Aveline at University of Calgary, Sara at Ottawa, etc. I created Young Riders College mail list for them when they started college. Probably some day their own kids will turn up in JRJ. :)

It all started with an innocent (LOL) Kris Note ....

Kris note - conventional wisdom from my youth: Canada bred TBs are the nicest hunters in the world. Show hunters can be pretty boring. Not much seat in you kids today. Too many fences and not enough flat work. Heheheheheh.

From: Margot
Subject: HOCK and/or Jr Riders: Kris' comment and my reply

KRIIIIIISSSS!!!! (and everyone else)
I am *going* to remain calm while responding to this. I have read a lot of stuff lately saying that hunters are boring and riders have no style. There was even an article a few moths ago in "Horse Show" that talked about the lack of style in today's equitation riders. All I can say is that it upsets me. I know SOOO many people who work SO hard to get to compete in rated shows, especially at my barn. And they are REAL riders. I am trying not to bore you all to death but about the "too many fences" remark it is certainly not like that where I ride. ESPECIALLY IN WINTER(!) I was at a "show camp" at my barn this summer and we only jumped maybe 2 jumps every day. It was incredibly hard work but it paid off. I have a flat lesson (with MAXIMUM 1 jump at the end) once a week and a hunter/eq. lesson once a week let me tell
you I don't do that much jumping!!!!!! Sure there are some people who only win everything 'cause they have the $$$ to buy "packer ponies" who know everything, but still... Some trainer from another barn walked up to Antonia and said, "you have the most beautiful seat I have ever seen" and he was NOT talking about her butt!!!!!!!! SO let us *please* not make generalizations about "riders today" okay?

Margot and Albert (packer pony? what's that!?) and Sunset Farms

From: Gabby
Subject: ???:Packer Ponies & Hunters

I don't know about Hunters but I was taught jumper/hunter all growing up, it's only since last year that I became REALLY interested in eventing. Besides the fact that my horse is too forward and massive to fit hunter/jumper style, eventing fits him well also since he's bred for endurance (doesn't sweat even at the end of a super hard work out). He's a standardbred. But anyway, I don't like hunter/jumper because it is too "the same". You have to wear the same clothes you have to look the same, same hair, same hight, same bones, your horse has to look like everyone else's horse. That's my impression. YUCK! I am short with short legs and my hair is sooo thick I can't put it up under my hat (tryed and died) not to mention curly. My horse is thick boned, massive, strong, big, tall, blood bay. Get the picture? I will chose eventing over hunting/jumping anyday! And also I am one of those people who can't stand being the same as everyone else. I am DIFFERANT! Just my 2 cents on the subject.

Gabby
His neigh is like the bidding of a monarch,
And his countenance enforces homage.(Shakespeare)

From: Lizzy R
Subject: Hunters
I am rather inclined to agree with Kris on the hunters thing. A lot of hunter riders spend way too much time on fences. Mind, I'm primarily a dressage rider, and I do love to make fun of h/j riders (just ask Christine), but this is my opinion. My best friend, Karen, rides at an excellent hunter/jumper barn which is very close to Raflyn, where I ride, and while I think that she has a very good instructor, I often tease her about their lack of flat work. She spends maybe 10 minutes (often times less) warming up on the flat, where she trots, canters and gallops just top get going, and then the rest of the lesson is jumping. Every lesson. Christine and I frequently make fun of her and we are constantly telling her that she doesn't do nearly enough on the flat. Mind you, I do not think that she's a lousy rider. I'm scared to death of having to compete against her at any hunter shows (it hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it will). She's really becoming a good hunter rider, but she hardly knows what flat work is. Most of my lessons are entirely on the flat, even though I do love to jump, but every one of my lessons begins with a lot of walking and trotting, before we do anything, be it jumping or lateral work. In that time I loosen up, and get the horse relaxed, and honestly, I think that I learn the most in that portion of my lesson. We work on getting the horse on the bit a lot then, but I guess that this isn't especially desirable in hunter. I hate hunter frames. No offense, but they're so flat and strung out. I know I'm going to get slammed for this, but I think that a lot of dressage riders feel this way about hunters. At Karen's recent show where she came away with 3 blues out of 4 classes, there were a few riders from my barn, including my instructor. There was a very obvious difference in their riding. To tell you the truth, they didn't do very well. It was a very small show though. Ahh!! I'm branching off from 'hunter riders don't get enough flat work' to 'dressage vs. hunter'. Oh well, forgive me. This must sound like a really snotty post, and actually, if I hadn't already spent so much time on it I wouldn't send it, but oh well. That's my opinion. Okay, just forget my dressage influence. A lot of hunter riders don't get enough flat work in my opinion. The basis of all learning is on the flat, and there is no substitute for work at the three basic gaits. There. Now don't kill me.

Lizzy

From: Sara Langler
Subject: HOCK - 90's Hunter/Jumper Riders

Like many of you, I'm going to throw myself willingly into what seems to be becoming quite the *heated* debate. I must admit that I have to agree with Kris and Lizzy, and have to completely disagree with Gabby. I show mainly dressage, but when my dressage show season is over, I hit the hunter rings. I have many friends who show on the local circuit, as well as people I hardly know, and the common comment from them is "flat, work, do we have to?" They think that dressage is boring and pointless, and many of you are probably thinking this is only a few people, but I'm talking 30-40 people here that I have talked to. Even a lot of the kids at my barn that ride hunter/jumper are like "ahh, do we HAVE to do dressage, I want to jump, etc etc". As for Gabby's comment, I have a lot of admiration for hunter riders. They are able to perfect something that's not easy to do. As for the size of the rider, sorry, but that doesn't really matter. I have seen a lot of different heights, and sizes of riders tackle the hunter ring, and done quite well. And there are numerous roly poly little ponies and horses that I've seen in the rings as well. Margot said that they only did something like 2 jumps a day, or one jump at the end of a lesson, but why can't you go for a week or even a few days, without jumping? Just my 2 or 3 cents on this issue.

	/\	"Qui me amat, amat at equimum meum"
    ; o\	   (Love me, love my horse)
   ;;  \
   ;; /\/ Sara & Eishouse 

From: Margot
Subject: Jr Riders: My day on Thursday.

Hey everyone... Lizzy said that hunter frames were flat. Well. Let me count the # of horses in my barn who travel VERY round. I think it is about 8 -- this includes Albigail, when we work hard. These are also the top show horses/ponies in the barn. We have to get our horses to use their hind ends, too!
ANYway, I **wanted** to write about my day on Thursday. It was kindof stressful because first 3 of my school classes got all switched around and I had no idea where I was supposed to be all day. Then I get to the barn, and Dana says, "can I have a lesson on Albert?" I said she could and THEN she tells me that he is SO wild that Kristen will have to lunge him and then I will have to get on him and then DANA will ride him and then **I** will get on Harley (John's pony) and have my lesson on Harley! There were saddles, gloves, helmets, lungewhips and all sorts of things flying around the barn I had to go so fast to get ready! They were both good (though Alberto was *buck* wild at the beginning!), and Miranda said that Harley and I did a very good figure 8 (ahem.) and I got Harley to drop his head (he is a semi-green Arabian who was NOT taught to travel in much of a frame) and work from behind.
I am very sore now though, and my legs and arms keep falling off. :-( My back is sore too, when I jumped an oxer w/Harley Miranda told me to "equitate" and so I did and my chaps rode up and got stuck in the small of my back right above my jeans and I couldn't fix it 'cause Harley decided that he wanted to do keep cantering and do a flying lead change (which is VERY good for him). So it hurt. Well, I have to go now but I am sure you all appreciated that and Albert says hi to everyone's ponies (or horses). =)
~~Margot and Albert (hi!!!! do you have any food?)

From: Katie Higgins Subject: Re: Junior Riders Digest - Flat Work

I do a ton of flat work in my lessons. Yes I can jump, and I am not to bad at it. My new riding instructor Carrie, is the best instructor in MY world{I don`t want to start another argument here} First of all we have lesson where we just do flat work. Like circles, transitions, leg yielding. We don`t do poles or anything. Then she will explain how this is important to jumping, and then she'll tell us what we need to work on with our positions. Then maybe we will work on different parts of a course, the next week, using or trying to use the stuff we leaned in the last lesson, only if we are ready. The horse I am riding is a 8 year old Qh gelding who loves to jump, but isn`t very good at all of this complicated stuff on the flat. So I am kinda of playing trainer to him. I tend to keep this pattern when I part-board then when I get my own horse {which will never by to soon} Just my ten dollars worth !
Katie

From: J.N. Caso
Subject: JrRiders: HUNTER DISCUSSION

Hi everyone! Well, I've observed this hunter/jumper discussion for awhile, and thought that it was time to add my opinion.

That's exactly what it is. A matter of opinion. No one can say that one discipline is better than another. Everyone's different and everyone likes different things.

Personally, I like the hunt seat, because that is what I ride in real life. It is the only thing I have ever been taught to do. Actually, I had brief experience with an introduction to dressage once, but it didn't really appeal to me. I find jumping more exciting, I guess because there is more action involved and you are "flying" (hehe...sorry I just thought of an inside joke, nevermind). I admit that I, like most jumping people, don't really like flat work. I admit that I do think it's kind of boring, but I understand that it's essential for riding and learning. My instructor's lessons consist mostly of jumping practice usually, but sometimes I have all flat lessons (and yes, I usually refer to them as boring [g]). Some days we work more on flat than other times. lately, we've been doing alot of work with bending and work w/o stirrups (aahh!!!! I love stirrups so much!!!) and everything like that. It helps me though, you know, even though I don't like it.

Yes, dressage people have nice seats and do really well on the flat, and I am sure that you enjoy it. That's fine with me. It's just that jumping is what gives ME satisfaction. It's different for everyone. Also, about hunter people not having good seats, I can beg to differ. There is Hunt Seat Equiation, where the rider has to have good position. It's just a different sort of position than in dressage. I know my seat needs some work, so that's why I guess all of us need flat work.

Someone said that all hunter people look the same and that she was an individual and all that...please! Okay, so everyone wears the same thing in hunter...what about jumper? dressage? saddle seat? It's the standard uniform for the discipline. I'm NOT saying I LIKE the hunter attire. In fact, I think all of it's uncomfortable, but I still love the riding. The only discipline that people can actually look different in is Western. I must say I think Western attire c'est tres chouette ("very cool!")! Anyways...just because you ride hunter doesn't mean you're not unique. I thought that was a....okay I can't think of an adjective to describe that comment without being offensive, so I'll leave it at that.
Good luck to everyone!

Jacqueline Caso and Boots, my hunter Quarter Horse mare
I'm here, but I'm really gone.

From: Whitney
Subject: JR. Riders-FLAT/JUMP

This argument has kind of ticked me off-so I am giving you my opinion (which you all know I rarely do.) I show Hunters/Jumpers and I do TONS of flatwork. I ride without stirrups, without reins and without a saddle over poles for sometimes a month to prepare for a show, this way my position is strong and I can get over any size jump. Tango gets lunged over jumps to work on his form because it is *really* bad. He jumps very rounded, his thing is height. Some days, like yesterday all I do is jump just so I can test my muscles. There are some things you can't do on the flat like work on your release and closing angle and timing for closing-you have to balance it out because flat work isn't the key to everything. I HATE DRESSAGE-I have no patience for it, neither does Tango, but Shah is pretty good. I admire people who can actually do it without pulling their hair out. Since some of you guys might be confused on my *horse* situation here are some definitions:
TANGO-dark bay 16.3hh TB gelding w/star and white nips on hisn forelegs. He goes to shows with me because he trailers well and my friend Cynthia also jumps him. He has strong hindquarters and qualifies to go in the "crazy horse" pasture. He is 8 yrs. old and incredibly cute. Owned by Larry my trainer
SHAH-bay 15.2hh Arabian gelding (am I really? I didn't know that!) works well in drill and over small jumps. Nickname is two step because his back legs look so funny-Shah is owned by me.
SHADOW-16 hh TB mare. Black with reddish mane. Uses double-bridle over jumps and has a really smooth canter. She is also owned by Larry and I am training her to actually jump over jumps instead of taking long canter strides.

Whitney+
Shah (confused about my gender)
Shadow (don't know the meaning of the word trot)
Tango (oops, was that your finger, I thought it was a carrot hee hee)

From: KATHARINE GRON
Subject: Jr Riders: Hunter Stuff

About this whole flatwork thing...

I agree with Kris, most people (from what I've seen) are too anxious to be jumping higher and higher or to get out there and show that they completely disregard flatwork and developing a seat. My trainer, although we hardly ever have complete flatwork lessons, will have half of our lessons on flatwork w/o stirrups or with extending/collecting/leg yields, etc. I also, when I am hacking Lucas, work on my own with my seat (I have been very keen on this lately and have been experimenting with half halts and the like) and strengthening my legs, getting Lucas into a nice, round frame, doing more of the "dressagy" stuff (no flames please). I have been behind on digests, but from bits and pieces of what I've heard, I also agree that a lot of the hunter riders I know think dressage is boring. I (although I don't take dressage lessons or anything) love it and find it fascinating. I am subscribed to Equine-L, and many of the people on there are big dressage riders and I have read so many tips and various stories, etc that I can get really good flatwork out of Lucas and he has improved dramatically, just from remembering what I've read. I think flatwork is a vital part of any type of riding, it is the basis of anything more advanced than the W/T/C. If your flatwork has been ignored, you can't do too much of anything else. And when people at my barn say that you don't really need a seat, I tell them to try and jump Lucas over a 3'0 course. Well, I have to go catch up on my digests.

Just my 2 dollars worth.

-Katy &
Lucas (Actually mommy hasn't been out for a while I've been secretly
practicing DRESSAGE in the paddock and when mommy comes tomorrow I'll have the perfect frame and be perfect and all she'll have to do is sit there. NOT!)

From: KATHARINE GRON
Subject: Jr Riders: Lizzy's and Gabby's Posts

First to Gabby:

I ride hunter/jumpers, and you don't have to be the same! There are all different types out there winning all different classes with all different type riders! I don't show on the A Circuit where I think that matters more (We can't afford it and I think, no flames please, it is based just a LITTLE too much on how low and flat looking the horse can get, but I'll talk about that when I reply to Lizzy), I show on our B circuit, where you see all different types out there. All I know is, I always wanted a horse that was somehow different so he'd stand out and be noticed by a judge in a huge flat class! Lucas is a big horse (around 17.2 hh at 4 yrs), and he is very flashy and very LONG and does look different (good way, though) and I love it because the judges notice! I am a fairly short legged person, just like you said you were, but I win my Equitation classes over people that are the typical "models" of long legs. From the small bits of the A Circuit that I've seen, they are a bit more into a "look" - the same look wins, but I haven't seen too much. But it's not just hunters - heard the hype lately about how WB's are the best for dressage so people go out and buy Warmbloods? (A few people I know did this) and the best eventers are the huge, big boned types that can eat up a cross country course? I have seem tons of horses and riders that don't fit the "norm" that go and whip everyone's butts for years and years!

Then to Lizzy:

I partially agree with you about the hunter frame. Although like Margot said, many hunters out there have a nice, round frame that isn't the flat, strung out look. I DO work with Lucas on getting him up onto the bit - in my hunter flat classes I DON'T ride him around at the buckle like some of the riders do - I hate it when horses stick their noses way out and get all strung out just to have a "low" head. When I ride Lucas, I ride him in a round frame on the bit. He is a big, long horse that does frequently get strung out (he is only 4 though) and I am always working with him on that. I ride him in a frame that isn't the flat look and I love the dressage - even though I am not a dressage rider I do to the best of my abilities to achieve frames that any successful lower level dressage horse has. Margot is also right though - many horses are ridden on the bit and with a gorgeous, not the fake, flat frame. Of course, there is the opposite of the flat frame I also hate - where riders wear their horses in draw reins for months on end and have the horses flex so the nose touches the chest - I feel that is almost "fake". I go by the GP Dressage horses - they flex but I don't see their heads at wither level when they do, their noses don't touch their chest when they do, they don't need 6 months of draw reins to achieve that...

-Katy & Lucas (I am very big and gangly and very hard to ride into a good frame. Ha! Ha!)

From: Jennifer Sokos
Subject: JrRiders: Hunter Debate

Hello Everyone!
I have been listening to this hunter debate for quite a while, and I finally got around to putting my two cents in. The barn I ride at teaches hunt seat and dressage. I ride and show both disciplines. I *love* dressage, and find it very effective on the horse and rider. The problem is my horse *hates* it, so I usually show in hunter/jumper stuff. Anyway we do more dressage and flat work then we do over fences work. I do a lot of bending work, and lateral work. I only jump her about once a week. She would not be nearly as good over fences, and I wouldn't have nearly the control I do if it wasn't for the flat work and dressage stuff we do. Working on the flat is the only way to get the control and position you need to be able to ride a course. Most of the hunter riders out at the barn hate dressage. All they like to do is jump, and believe me that is all they do. They think dressage is a waste of time, and boring. I love to jump, but dressage has taught me a whole lot more, and given me the control I need to ride a course.

Just my 2 cents! Jenn

From: Lacey
Subject: Digest hunter/jumper vs. dressage

is because the discussions of hunter/jumper vs. dressage. I love dressage it is the style of riding i most prefer. I think that it is the base of all other types of riding. In order to compete successfully in any aspect of the show ring i believe that you must have a basic knowledge of collection and all the other major parts of dressage riding. I do think that in order to be a good hunter/jumper or whatever the horse must be schooled on the flat to have respect for the riders aids. Also on the aspect of Dressage not being fun. I suggest the people that think this get aboard a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level horse during a lesson and tell me then that extensions, flying changes, and all the other wonderful things that a horse like this can do is boring.

I suppose since this is the first time i have written i should tell you a bit about my horse and me. My horse is a National Show Horse (arab saddlebred) her sire is Key West. Yes we ride dressage the cross of these breeds gives a very athletic horse. We are currently training at first level but by the end of the year hopefully we will be to second or above. I suppose that is all.

Lacey McCarley and Key Amoure

From: MISS RACHEL A MONROE
Subject: Jr Riders - Hunter

Well, I finally decided to add my thoughts to this debate. My barn is a really small barn, and I'll go to maybe 10 shows a year, at most. We compete in hunter, and I don't know about everyone else, but my teacher is REALLY into flatwork! In fact, she's declared February no-stirrup month, even in shows :-) I'm sure there are some people out there who spend all of their lessons jumping, and that would be fun, if it was possible! I love to jump, but you can jump unless you've done the flatwork. You're only in the air for a few seconds, and the rest is flatwork, so flatwork is really important for everything. Anyway, on another subject, I rode my mom's horse Silver Dollar today for the first time since he hurt his stifle in May (he's healed now) He was really good, especially with his lead changes :-) Well, that is until we started heading up to the barn... Our ring is down a hill from the barn, so when I started walking up the hill, he started trotting, and he likes to gallop up the hill, so I made him walk. He REALLY wanted to get up the hill, so he started doing all of these dressage-y moves all over the place, and he was bucking and being a brat, and finally he just got fed up with me and took off. Well, I circled him, but he's a big boy, and he didn't want to stop, so I had basically no control, even though I was pulling on him 'till my arms were numb. We had a nice little gallop up the hill :-) He almost ran over my mother, and my friends on their horses, and he almost smashed into these two little kids who were there. I felt SOO awful! Well, as soon as he got to the barn he stopped, and I yelled at him. I was really scared that he would hurt his stifle again, cause he's not really in shape :-) But he was fine, and I had to walk him up and down the hill a billion times... He's such a brat! But a cute brat :-)

From: Gabby
Subject: Jr Riders:Let The Peace Be With You

Okay. All I said about the hunter/jumper thing was that I prefered eventing to h/j that's it. Sure I make fun of h/j but I also make fun of saddle seat and eventers and jockeys and certain people that tick me off. But It's fun to fool around on Jeff that's why I do it. The thing about the "same" thing was that the 1 hunter show I went in with Jeff I got 20 people yelling at me to:"TAKE OFF THOSE BLUE POLOS, AND YOU CAN'T WHERE A HELMET COVER (I wasn't going to but I hadn't changed at the time) TAKE THE GIRTH COVER OFF! WHAT A HARIBUL MANE DON'T YOU KNOW HOW TO PLAIT? TAKE OUT THAT HARIBUL FRENCH BRAID IN HIS TAIL!" Actually I do know how to plait but I wasn't willing to cut off my beautiful horse's mane just to go to one show, so I made it in to diamonds. It was quite lovely actually-I thought. So that's my perspective. Dressage has a dress code too, but I like dressage style better. At least I can braid his tail

And as I said: "My horse is too powerful to show in hunter" he is. The judge-who was very nice-walked up and said "I would like to see him be a little quitter" So I thought: jeff has a lot of massive energy, what would he be good in, and it dawned on me-eventing. He's got the nice round rump for jumping, perfect conformation. long legs, a beautiful frame, gets on the bit and when he does-god does he look beautiful, like a stallion. No if I had a choice I don't think eventing would be my first, but there was nothing else that appealed to me. At least I enjoy eventing, if I was back an ol' h/j I (and Jeff) would be miserable. So please, matter of opinion. I think h/j is not for me but for other people.

It's all a bunch of stereotypes.

From: Margot
Subject: Jr Riders: More Hunter Stuff

Hey everyone!! Here I am going to talk about the benefits of watching a beautiful beautiful beautiful pony jump a hard course. I was at Culpeper this summer riding Albert in Children's Pony Hunters and Maiden Equitation. ANyway, Krystal was going in Small/Medium Greens so we all went to watch Dana ride her. There was this other pony whose name I can never remember. It was the most BRILLIANT pony I have ever seen in my entire life (xcept for Albert, of course) she had a gorgeous face and was so *bright* over each fence, it was like she was having the best time of her life. Obviously, she won the class! And she well deserved it. I was thinking about this pony the whole 2 days and especially during my last course, which was every bit as brilliant according to my trainer =) So hunters are not always boring, a really good horse or pony has this sort of attitude, "look at me I'm gorgeous". And it is fun to watch!

About the "everyone has to look the same" this is my opinion: Yeah, you have to all dress the same, but if you can make yourself stand out, you win! I think that is the whole point of a good hunter seat equitation class, so the judge judges who RIDES the best, and who can really stand out where everyone "looks" the same. To Katy: go short legged people!!!! I have the shortest legs of anyone my age at my barn (actually, I know 10yr olds w/longer legs than me!!), but if I go into the ring in a flat equitation class and ride with ATTITUDE, I can still look really good and do very well!!!! True, it *does* help to have long legs!!! Just my thoughts,

~~Margot and Albert (I have an attitude! hehe)

From: Sarah Kirshin
Subject: MORE MESSAGES FROM SARAH K.

As usual I have all of my messages in one weekly lump, so here goes nothin'!!!

1. Re: Whitney, Shadow jumps flat over low jumps eh?!? That sounds familiar (Tom - I'd never!)...what I do when my horse isn't jumping properly, is set up a grid. I put three ground rails spaced 4'6" apart, then 9' to a cross-rail, then 18' (one-stride) to a low vertical. After my horse has completed that successfully, I change the vertical to a slightly higher oxer. I sometimes add another fence (low vertical or oxer) 21' after the oxer. This helps the horse create a proper bascule. Also, when your horse couldn't get his lead when you were cantering in jumping position, you may have been leaning to one side without knowing (it happens to me once in a while too!) which can put your horse off balance, and then he'll swap leads. I hope you get well soon!

2. Re: Jessica J. having a radio in the barn is a great idea--we even have one in our arena at Woodacres--it really keeps your horse calm and relaxed. I have just one thing to say, and I swear that this is true: Tom--and I as a matter of fact--HATE country music, and find that rock, alternative and punk (maybe even disco for all of you dressage people out there!) are much better. Just a thought from Tom, Sarah & Gizmo!

3. Re: Hunters? Boring? Not enough flat work? Dressage is better? Eventing is better? WHAT? First of all I would like to say that I totally agree with Jen Caso. I also agree with Kris that, and I quote: "Canada bred TB's are the nicest hunters in the world." (Tom - you know it!) But, if you think that hunter frames are flat and strung out, then I guess you haven't seen many GOOD hunters lately! I think a dressage frame is beautiful, and I can achieve it on Tom and Gizmo, but when I do, my coach reminds me that I'm not riding dressage, I ride hunter! Another thing is that hunter might look boring to an eventer, but at least you have less of a chance in wrecking your horse's tendons! Not to mention that in my opinion dressage is as much fun as watching grass grow, on offense. I always include a little dressage as part of our program, to keep Tom and Gizmo paying attention though. Before anyone decides to shoot me for my opinion, I will close this topic with a quote, from Forrest Gump: "and that's all I have to say about that."

From: Raina Subject: Re: Jr. Riders Hunter/Jumper Argument

Well, first of all I'd like to say that I do not ride Hunter/Jumper, but I do ride Dressage, which has been copping a fair bit of flak during this debate. I love Dressage, and would never swap to another type of riding- though I can jump, have been taught the correct jumping seat and so forth and I've also taught my horse to jump as well.

As far as I'm concerned, it is extremely difficult to correctly ride in ANY type of riding, yet they're all completely different. The reason I love Dressage is the challenge. There is always something to perfect, something that could have been done better. But that's the same as anything, as far as I'm concerned. I think that anyone who thinks they can ride perfectly or that riding is easy needs to do some serious thinking. Also if Hunter/Jumper people think they can just go out and Jump with out learning about the correct seats, the are wrong. That's just like going out and galloping around before you learn to walk.

And back Dressage again, though I value other peoples opinions, I simply cannot understand how anyone could possible find Dressage boring. Even when I was learning the basics of Walk/Trot/Canter I found it fascinating. And now, there's just so many things to learn and better. After warming up, my horse and I practise leg yielding, turn's on the forehand, simple changes of leg, flying changes, and much more, but I'm also always correcting and improving. How can anybody find Dressage boring??

Raina + Jedda (We do all those things? .............. and all the time I thought we were dancing! Would you mind telling me next time we start on some work so that I can muck up properly?)

Kris note - In the UK people won't even know what a hunter is. Hunters as discussed here is not world-wide.

From: Tim Varga
Subject: RE: Hunters

I'm a Hunter/Jumper. I've been doing it for a year. I did dressage training for 3 years, just so I could jump. Just because we don't do a TON of flat work during a jumping lesson doesn't mean we're any worse. At a jumping lesson, when you start out, you start out on flat. It's not like you go directly from sitting on the horse to jumping. ou have to do flat, then work on your seat. My lessons jumping are very good, I jump some, and I work on flat. I guess you have to actually be in a jumping lesson to know what you really do, and the point.

Tim Varga

From: Lizzy R
Subject: Jr Riders: The Revenge of Addie the Freak Mare and other

Hi peoples, How are all of you. I hope that my hunter post hasn't offended anyone. I'm sorry if it did. That's just my personal opinion, and it seems that hunter and dressage riders just love to bask each other. Actually, when I started riding I was at a barn which was strictly hunter/jumper, and at the barn which I was at up until just a few months ago was not really distinguished as either. In any case, my first show at Raflyn is going to be a hunter show and I get to ride ADDIE THE FREAK MARE. I don't know if I've told you about her. I've ridden her four times now and I really want to half lease (no, my parents can't afford to buy me a horse, and I don't honestly have the time, although I swear that I'd give up anything, including crew if I could) her this summer, but I'm really not sure if transportation from Seattle, where I live is going to work. Addie's privately owned, but her owners off somewhere, and she isn't being ridden much except for in a few lessons, mine included. She's always a really tense horse, I guess, but her not being ridden much hasn't helped either. She's a QH, but she's built like a TB and her temperament is pretty much your typical hot TB stereotype. In any case, I was jumping her yesterday in my lesson, no, it was two days ago. It is 5am on Monday and school has been canceled due to about 4 inches of snow. Hey, I bet that you people who have been buried much of the winter find that just thrilling. In any case, she hasn't been jumped much lately, and we were working on bounces, and she started snaking around trying to get me off her back. I stayed on for a really long time, and was very, very proud of myself for staying on as long as I did, but she finally got me and I fell on my back. Now I'm really stiff through my back and neck. She wasn't even 's'posed to be her usual stressed self. The had a chiropractor adjust her last Thursday ir something (at Raflyn they routinely have their horses adjusted and rolfed). In any case, she's a brat, or a basketcase, or something to that effect, and I'm riding her in a show in two weeks, and Ralph isn't even gonna be there because he's headed down to Florida or wherever it is that the USDF symposium is taking place. I like Addie a lot though. Also, the show is taking place at Karen's barn, and I'm trying to convince her to get her instructor to let her go. Karen is seriously going to kick my butt, if she goes, but I honestly don't care. I think it'll be fun. She insists that it'll be miserable until I convince her of how badly I'm going to do. Hey, yesterday when I was looking at stuff on the office walls out at Raflyn I discovered a pretty good true story. I'm going to try and make this as short as possible though. From the early 50s until the early 70s Raflyn was a thriving Lippizan facility with horses imported by Ralph's mother from Austria. Their horses covered all 6 or 7 of the lines and I both Ralph and his mother have trained at the Spanish Riding School as well as helping at Piber. In 1973 or something though, there was some big flood up in Snohomish where Raflyn is, and the farm was wiped out, all but 3 of their Lippizans included. How long is this letter. I don't want to know. I was going to keep it short too. Goodbye.

Lizzy and Addie the Freak Mare ('hey, number one I'm not yours, and number two, you're off telling everyone that you think hunter's are two flat when you can't even get me to the point where I'm flat, much less round')

From: Erin Sarsfield
Subject: Jr Riders Hunter

"Someone said that all hunter people look the same and that she was an individual and all that...please! Okay, so everyone wears the same thing in hunter...what about jumper? dressage? saddle seat? " Well I would just like to say on this that the horses that you find in hunter, all are of the same "type" you see one, you have seen them all. Well I am not saying that there is just one type of horse, but Tb, Tb cross, dark bay, chestnut- But in dressage- you have the big mighty warmbloods that you stay away from in warm up, then the little dressage ponies, the big heavy belgian cross horses, everything- and every colour, grey, bay, palomino, appy, chestnut, everything! Whitney says "I HATE DRESSAGE-I have for the flat work thing-no patience for it, neither does Tango, but Shah is pretty good. I admire people who can actually do it without pulling their hair out." Well thanks! "Uses double-bridle over jumps and has a really smooth canter.' Um.. Would that be a bridle with 2 sets of reins ( not all bridles with 2 sets of reins is a double) or an actual double. A double bridle consists of 2 sets of reins. A plain bridoon i s high in the horses mouth than the curb. Mainly seen in dressage???? I am a dressage rider, and I have to say that flat work is the basis of everything

In laymans terms- If your flat work "sucks" then so does your jumping.

Just my opinion BTW-One funky horse out there that is a perfect hunter is Sara and Atomic Kiss- Saw ya in Horse Sport ! WOW!! Are ya coming to Capital Classic A show in July???? Erin

From: Natasha Provencher
Subject: Re: Junior Riders Hunter/Jumper and Dressage comments

Hello everyone !! :) Soooo, we have a few disagreements. Well, I've been reading the last few digests and I've seen a ton of one sides arguments. I'd like to add my point of view because I've ridden hunter for almost 7 years and the last couple of years I've been trying dressage so I think I have an even point of view. Living in Ontario I've seen a few Trillium shows and a ton of schooling shows and I have to agree that a lot of hunt riders have bad seats and the horses are badly strung out. I also think that a ton of them are too cutsey for a real hunt course. On the other hand I've taken zillions of lessons from a H/J coach and we spent the greater part of the lesson working on flat work, mostly our riding positions. We did have an all jumping lesson every once in a while. But we also had the odd lessons where we would do fun things like RCMP movements (pinwheels....etc..), work on extension and collection, getting on the bit, so we did kinda do dressage stuff. A couple years ago I left that barn and moved to a barn that had almost all dressage riders, so I started that. In December a large part of my friends from my old barn moved to my barn because the other was sold to guy who rode western(the arena had a chute built in)...Back to my point, I thought they wouldn't have great seats, because they had a new trainer and did a lot of jumping. I was wrong, they had good seats and the horses weren't strung out. So not all hunters are like that. As for dressage, I'm sorry but I can't believe someone would say it was boring, I've never showed dressage but we've been using a lot of advanced movements to supple up my sometimes stiff horse. I know riding around searching for the perfect circle can get a bit boring but do you know what it's like to get your horse to trot sideways. The other afternoon we had my TB doing half the moves the Lippizaner stallions do! We haven't been doing this for long, but anyone can do it, being as we did. It was so much fun and CHALLENGING! I had a perma-grin for the rest of the day! So it just goes to show that all riding disciplines are favored by some people, but those people shouldn't put down something they don't like just because they don't. It just may not be their thing. I love both disciplines and unfortunately I have to decide which I'm going to show at this summer. All I know is that the dressage I've done so far has immensely improved my horses jumping! :)

On to other stuff, I'm freeeeeezing!! I think the roof to the arena is going to blow off soon!!!!! Just a little comment I do think that Canadian bred TB are the best. Sorry so long ! Natasha & Ho Hum Silver (Mommy, is that because I'm a cute Canadian TB ? )

From: Gabby
Subject: Jr Riders:Hunter does not vers dressage it = it

Hello people. Everytime I say something about one of the topics, people start yellen at me for my opinion. And it's not just that but they seem to totally get the wrong idea of what I'm saying. Here it is in plain english so people can see:

I like eventing, that is what I ride. I do not ride hunter/jumper but I don't hate it, it just doesn't fit my needs (or wants). You guys ride the way you feel like: ride upsidedown for all I care. Go naked but you would be arrested. The point is eventing=hunter/jumper=western=saddle seat=dressage=in hand=endurance riding=pleasure=whatever you do with your horse. Why? because they all have to do with the horse. Now, does everybody understand all that? I did ride h/j for all my life. It's just the past year that I started eventing.

Look-if every single one of Jr Riders went on a trail ride we would all have these things in common:we're riding horses, we all (unless bareback) have saddles and bridles, we all put our heals down, we all have our backs straight, our eye's forward, and we all our most likely having fun. Unless you're riding a bronco and your butt is sore.

Now if you don't get what I just said e-mail me directly. And I will say one last time:

I DON'T HATE HUNTER/JUMPER STYLE OR ANY OTHER DISCAPLIN!!!!!!!

Gabby + Jeff His neigh is like the bidding of a monarch, And his countenance enforces homage.(Shakespeare)

From: Aveline
Subject: Re: Hunter debate

This debate has been going on for so long, and I have to put in my two cents about dressage. Like I have said in the past, I am clued out about showing. I have jumped and done a little dressage so I kind of know what the two are about. In my last issue of Horsepower magazine, I remember reading that at the Quarter Horse Congress (a big show!) a lot of the western trainers were warming up their horses with english snaffle bits, and were riding ENGLISH even though they still had western saddles on their horses. They had a rein in each hand and longer stirrups and were using first level DRESSAGE techniques. Once their horses were warmed up, they would go into the show ring and their horses were more supple and co-operative. So basically, top QH horse trainers have figured out that dressage helps their horses to be more flexible etc. which means better results! Now if dressage can help western riders, it has got to help hunter jumpers! After all, jumping is kind of like flat work with obstacles. Just my two cents on this issue! Aveline and Grover

From: Margot
Subject: JrRiders: Hunter Discussion

I have a few more points to add to this **great** hunter/dressage/other disciplines discussion that I am THOROUGHLY enjoying. tehehehe.

** Not all Hunters are the same "type". there are all different colors and sizes of hunters, maybe not so much on the national level, but definitely on the local and "zone" level. You have your 3 basic frames: The very round, tuck in your nose frame; the higher head and more stretched-out neck but still rounded back frame; and the bizarre, hold your reins at the buckle frame (usually too strung out). Some of them jump more like the ponies, with their knees in a "box" others BASCULE (ahem, Rox Dene!!). There are the typical TBs but there are TONS of QH's, Welsh/TB crosses (look like huge ponies, too cute!) and grade horses. Is Rox Dene even a Thoroughbred? I can't remember. She is being called the "ultimate show hunter" by a bunch of people right now, and she's pretty cool. And then, of course, you have the PONIES!!!! hahahahah. So so so cute, BTW, Albert went to Columbia on the 29th with Dana (w/OUT me knowing, ahem, JAY...) and WON a Children's Pony Hunter class!! He's cool. Okay, I am going off topic. The ponies tend to have more variety in color, build, etc. but tend to travel more the same. They hardly ever bascule, but still jump round and look beautiful.

**About this "couldn't you just jump once a week"... Here is my **personal** situation: I am NOT allowed to jump w/out an instructor, so I usually only HAVE 2 or 3 chances to jump each week. Trust me, I need them. And Albert needs them too. He loves jumping soo much 'cause he's a huge showoff, and if we do too much flatwork, even with a lot of variation and new stuff and hard work, he tends to get a little sour. I am always trying to improve on my equitation and on his form, so we need our 8 jumps a week or whatever it ends up being. Albert is not exactly an easy pony and if I didn't jump for a whole week he would either go insane, or when we tried to jump I wouldn't remember how to. And when we work on jumping we are also working on flatwork, going ALL the way to the corner, riding a STRAIGHT line, etc. so jumping aint so bad!! See y'all... ~~Margot and Albert (I got clipped and am now the color of a pencil and I feel very delicate and skinny and my mane is crimped from the show and I look like a girl, but I'm not I am the FIREY RED STALLION and I want to learn Horse Hopscotch...too cool)

Kris note and final word [evil grin] But flat work is better for you both. Jumping is the frosting on the cake.