Girls, body weight, rider fitness, weight loss ads in horse journals. Could you find a more volatile topic? Toss in George Morris public comments and you have a discussion that never ends. JRJ's first round of Weight and Rider Fitness began one year in Feb and ran into April. The second round started in October and got personal.

Food for thought ...

Subject: JRJ George Morris Susie Thaxton

As far as weight goes, he's correct. This is a 'team' sport. Why should your horse be expected to be fit and capable if you're not? He won't get after you for a few extra pounds or if its your build, only if you are truly over weight. I ride several horses a day and care for six. I still work out at the gym several times a week to ensure that I am fit for the sport. Notice that all the top riders are generally in excellent physical condition? Its because we *are* athletes too. Mr. Morris simply recognizes that.

Subject: JRJ George Morris Elizabeth Wine

*George Morris* I really think that what he has to say about the position of the horse and rider is very good. He knows what he's talking about from oodles of experience, but I really don't believe that it is his place to comment on a riders weight. I myself, am slightly overweight and self-conscious about it, and I don't like people criticizing me on it, I don't care WHO they are, if I don't ask for that comment I don't want it. And I don't think people ask for it when they send in a picture to his columns or go to his clinic. They come to work on their riding and their horse, not on something that should be dealt with outside of the horse world. And people deal with weight differently, I know just with in my group of friends some can eat and eat and not gain an inch but others of us can eat and eat and gain 20 pounds. He needs to realize that people are individual with their weight.

Subject: JRJ George Morris Pamela Okerholm

: KN - Your turnout (horse, tack, dress) should be absolutely clean, you : should be prompt, he prefers riders who carry weight in proportion to their : height

Yea GM, very into looks. My instructor isn't big on him, she has her own reasons I guess, but she agrees with a couple sayings of his. GM doesn't like overweight riders as far as I can tell, he's into that classic look. I remember reading his column in Practical Horseman recently, a girl sent a picture of herself schooling at home in chaps and a t-shirt. He said he'd never allow that sloppiness at his barn. He also doesn't like cross country riders because they typically have colorful outfits, again he's into the classic hunter look. And yes he loves those working without stirrups exercises. They really are good for working on your seat, leg, and balance on the flat and over fences. I had a blast jumping Avatar without stirrups! But if you need to take your stirrups back because you or your horse are having an off day, you're tired, or you are just plain loosing your balance, then you should. If the guy fell off I'd assume it was due to balance, or his horse wasn't the easiest thing to jump -then again I could be wrong.

Subject: JRJ George Morris-- Katie A.

I'm kind of new, I've only posted once but, i was interested in the George Morris subject. I think he's a good teacher, if you can take criticism (pardon my spelling). I have talked to a lot of people who liked him a lot, and others who couldn't stand him. I'd jump at the opportunity to have a clinic with him. He's got a lot more experience from me and i'd love to learn from him. But then I take things, too personally sometimes. I don't think he should be talking to people about their weight unless someone asks him. As a rider though, besides riding, I swim and play soccer, so i guess i'd be pretty fit. But still that's no one's business.

Subject: JRJ George Morris Ashleigh

*George Morris* He is an amazing trainer, but tough and of the old-school ways. In the 'olden days' people didn't often get as out of shape as people sometimes do today; he resents it, I guess. You're paying this person for his opinions and advice, and if his opinion is to lose weight, then you got when you paid for.

Subject: JRJ weight Ashley Braid

: Why should your horse be expected to be fit and capable if you're
: not? He won't get after you for a few extra pounds or if its your
: build, only if you are truly over weight.

I agree. You don't want to be anorexic or bulimic, of course. You don't want to be skin and bones, and a few extra pounds doesn't hurt. But being seriously overweight is both kind of unfair to your horse, and also just plain unhealthy for you. The main thing is, don't starve yourself, but eat healthy foods (swap those potato chips for some carrots and onion dip) and exercise regularly... not only will you be more satisfied with how you look but you'll be a better rider for it.

I agree that George Morris' comments on riders' weight are somewhat rude and offensive. However, being seriously overweight is harmful to both your health and your riding... And of course, again, I don't mean chubby, or a little overweight, I mean extremely overweight. I have nothing against overweight people, and I do know that some of it is just metabolism and genetics, but anyone is capable of eating healthily and exercising enough to get somewhat in shape. Again, please no one take offense, that's just my opinion :).

: but I really don't believe that it is his place to comment
: on a riders weight.

I'm not sure of the specific comment but it could be a matter of semantics. It is also advisable to note that yes, a rider's weight does affect their riding. You don't have to be a supermodel to ride but to be within the normal weight range for your age and height would do nothing but increase your riding prowess, I'm sure.

: I myself, am slightly overweight and self-conscious about it, and I
: don't like people criticizing me on it, I don't care WHO they are, if
: I don't ask for that comment I don't want it.

I see what you're saying, but he doesn't get on someone about being slightly overweight, or just their build. He only gets on someone if they are severely overweight.

: And I don't think people ask for it when they send in a picture to
: his columns or go to his clinic. They come to work on their riding and
: their horse, not on something that should be dealt with outside of the
: horse world.

When a person sends a photo into his column or attends one of his clinics they are asking for his opinions. No one is forcing anyone to send in a photo or ride in one of his clinics. If a person who is very overweight feels uncomfortable with the possibility that he might say "losing a few pounds would help your riding" or some similar comment, then they should not send in the picture or attend the clinic.

Weight does affect riding to some extent. Riding is a sport and therefore a person who is severely overweight is going to be hindered by that at least to some degree. It is true that being in shape helps your riding a lot, and while you shouldn't starve yourself or develop an eating disorder, eating healthily and exercising regularly can really benefit your riding, as well as your self-esteem. So in a way, it isn't an issue totally disconnected from the horse world.

: And people deal with weight differently, I know just with in my group
: of friends some can eat and eat and not gain an inch but others of us
: can eat and eat and gain 20 pounds. He needs to realize that people are
: individual with their weight.

I understand what you're saying. However, no matter what a person's metabolism and genes are, if you eat healthy and exercise enough, anyone can get in shape. I have the kind of metabolism that just a little bit of food puts weight on me, whereas some of my friends eat like pigs and are still stick-thin. But I make up for that by exercising daily: things like push-ups, curl-ups, jumping jacks, jumping on a trampoline, stretching, jogging, and other things, and so I manage to stay in good shape.

Subject: JRJ George Morris Abbey

I've never met George Morris, but I have ridden the flea bitten grey horse in his Hunt Seat Eq. Book. Although, my friend used to ride at a barn in Cincinnati, OH that is run by a student of George Morris' as well as being the rider of the Grand Champion Hunter Horse at the National Horse Show and Second Year Green Hunter Champion at the Penn. National Horse Show Follow This and Reserve Second Year Green Hunter at the Washington International Horse Show as well as winning either Medal or MacClay while being a student of George Morris. Anyways....the trainer is very much like George, she is very conservative and strict and does hold the same weight issue as George. My friend went bulimic because they caused her so much grief there. I think conservative and strict is acceptable and I can see how being fit is good for that.....lots of people, at least where I'm from, at this age group don't know when enough is enough and I know one girl at a different barn but from the area who died from diet related things.

Subject: JRJ: Weight -- Susie T

: And I don't think people ask for it when they send in
: a picture to his columns or go to his clinic.

I'm afraid that's exactly what you are doing any time you attend a clinic or send in a picture to George Morris' jumping clinic. You're paying for their experience *and opinions*. At one particular clinic with Nick Holmes Smith, he told me to get rid of my Connemara as she was utterly worthless (didn't do, stuck with her to Prelim, then sold her for lots of money!) and informed my best friend that she was a bit too heavy for her size and that to be fair to horse she should drop the weight. He was perfectly correct. When she lost weight, she moved up a level as it immediately improved her riding.

: And people deal with weight differently, I know just with in my group
: of friends some can eat and eat and not gain an inch but others of us
: can eat and eat and gain 20 pounds. He needs to realize that people are
: individual with their weight.

I always gain whatever I eat and then some. But instead of just feeling sorry for myself and my metabolism, I exercise and eat healthy. If I'm going to have cake, I know that it means tacking some more distance on to my jog. By doing that, I stay fit for riding and look good in my jeans! I simply realize that I *am* an athlete and as such treat my body like one. When I don't feel like heading for the gym or going for a jog, I just remind myself of the colour of jacket that I want to wear!

Subject: JRJ George Morris, fitness-vs-weight Rachel C.

If George Morris has a problem with unfit riders, fine, I respect that; he's been around a while, he has his reason, he knows what he's doing.

*But*, if he has a problem with *weight* or *size*, then I can't respect that. This quote (from Susie, I believe) --

: As far as weight goes, he's correct. This is a 'team' sport. Why should
: your horse be expected to be fit and capable if you're not? He won't get
: after you for a few extra pounds or if its your build, only if you are
: truly over weight.

Evidences the confusion. Does overweight mean unfit? Or more importantly, does *thin* mean *fit*? Certainly not, in answer to the latter. Everyone knows those people, if you aren't one yourself, who can eat eat eat never work out, yet stay skinny thin. That's genetics, that's metabolism, you can't change that. But does that mean it's correct for someone who's "naturally thin" to eat junk food not exercise, just because s/he doesn't need to stay thin? I'm not saying, by any means, that thin riders don't work to be thin; not at all. I'm simply saying that if George Morris, or *anyone*, is going to criticize riders for being out of shape, then be fair about it! Don't be prejudiced and assume that riders who are overweight are the only ones who are out of shape. Realize that if a rider is huffing puffing, if a rider can't handle the work load, then s/he's out of shape, no matter *what* her size, shape, or weight may be!

Subject: JRJ in shape Pamela Okerholm

: if you eat healthy and exercise enough, anyone can get in shape.

I don't remember exactly who said this, but one of the GP USET show jumper women riders said that you can be what people may consider "overweight" but still In Shape. Also there was an article on that I read a while back. They did a test to see how much pressure is exerted on the horse's back while riding. The heaviest man in the study exerted the least amount of pressure on the same horse's back because he rode at like GP level and could sit lightly in the saddle. While a smaller person exerted a good deal of pressure because they couldn't sit lightly by using their thighs and legs.

Subject: JRJ weight Sue E Thaxton

**Weight** : Does overweight mean unfit?

90% of the time, yes. For some of us, myself included, *fit and capable* does not mean rail thin. I have huge muscles that may not contribute to an elegant picture in dressage, but once I shift to a forward seat you can then see that I am every inch the athlete that I work so hard to be. Both my sisters are on the heavy side (both partly due to genetics, largely due to eating habits and lack of exercise) and though one used to be an accomplished, elegant rider, when she does get into the saddle now her weight, as she will tell you, very much gets in her way. She is very strong, but she is most definitely not fit.

: Or more importantly, does *thin* mean *fit*?

Thin means thin, not fit. However, just as 'anorexia' thin does not look nice in the saddle neither does an overweight rider. You have to find a balance.

Subject: JRJ Weight *ASHLEY Smith*

Weight is a very touchy subject, and I don't think that it is the place of a trainer to tell someone they need to loose weight in order to be a good rider.

While being overweight can be harmful to your health, I disagree whole-heartedly that being overweight is harmful to your riding. I also disagree that losing weight will help your riding.

The point is that weight is not a KEY factor in riding skill. Things like hard work, determination and focus come way before weight in determining a rider's ability. It is not true to say that if an overweight person looses weight, they will become a better rider, or that if a person gains weight, they will not ride as well. It just doesn't happen that way.

Subject: JRJ: Weight ---Susie

: Weight is a very touchy subject, and I don't think that it is the
: place of a trainer to tell someone they need to loose weight in order
: to be a good rider.

If their goal is to train the rider as an athlete, it is their place. Dom and Joannah have helped me extend my exercise program to loose more weight and stay fit for riding. I now have to get up insanely early in the morning, but its worth it. But then, I event and have to be in good shape for cross country and am being trained so that I can eventually go after a spot on the USET. Perhaps its a *little* for you and your goals.

: While being overweight can be harmful to your health, I disagree
: whole-heatedly that being overweight is harmful to your riding. I
: also disagree that losing weight will help your riding.

Its not going to make a beginner an advanced rider, but the fact remains that it will help. This is a game of balance, and carrying around a lot of extra weight is not going to help your balance. Maybe the difference it makes is small, but that's still an advantage and one that I'm going to take.

: The point is that weight is not a KEY factor in riding skill. Things
: like hard work, determination and focus come way before weight in
: determining a rider's ability.

Hmmm...I can see your point, but if weight doesn't matter, then why are all the top riders in the world fit? Why do they have exercise programs and belong to gyms? Why aren't over weight people on the team?

Subject: JRJ weight Ashley Braid

Sometimes being overweight is a direct result of genetics or side effects of certain medications. But in *most* cases of people being overweight, the problem is the person does not eat healthy foods (i.e. eats too much junk food) and/or does not exercise enough. I should have said that in *most* cases all it takes is healthy food and good exercise. Not all, but 99% of all.

: Weight is a very touchy subject, and I don't think that it is the
: place of a trainer to tell someone they need to loose weight in order to
: be a good rider.

Most trainers will not say that you need to lose weight in order to be a good rider, they will say that getting in shape will improve your riding. I see what you're saying, but I have to disagree. When you pay for a person to give you lessons you are paying for their opinions. The instructor's job is to do their best to help you become the best rider you can be. If it's their opinion that getting in shape will improve your riding, and they say it in a tactful way that's not rude or offensive, I think it's perfectly fine for them to tell you so.

: While being overweight can be harmful to your health, I disagree : whole-heatedly that being overweight is harmful to your riding. I also : disagree that losing weight will help your riding.

Losing weight will not necessarily help your riding. Losing weight is just that, losing weight. Getting in shape is not the same thing as just losing weight. Getting in shape is losing fat and at the same time strengthening and toning muscles and improving your physical strength. Going on a diet and dropping pounds will not necessarily help a person's riding, but exercising regularly and switching to a more healthy diet, therefore making yourself physically stronger and turning fat into muscle tone, is very beneficial. Just losing weight isn't guaranteed to help a person's riding ability, but getting in shape can and will improve a person's riding ability.

: The point is that weight is not a KEY factor in riding skill. Things
: like hard work, determination and focus come way before weight in
: determining a rider's ability.

Of course. But I still stand firm in my point that a rider who is in shape has an advantage physically over a rider who is not in shape. It's common sense. A track runner who's in shape is going to have a physical advantage over other track runners who are not in shape, a soccer player who's in shape is going to have a physical advantage over other soccer players who are not in shape, and so forth. Riding is a sport, it takes both mental and physical skill, so it makes sense that a rider who is in shape has a physical advantage over other riders who are not in shape.

Subject: JRJ Weight (Emma L)

In response to Ashley: I think the point of the paragraph you were responding to was not that a thin rider is automatically better than one who is heavier... I believe it is more than a rider who is overweight will find that their riding improves with a loss of weight and being in better shape - no that a thin rider is just automatically better

Subject: JRJ weight issues Sarah Bryen

My point is basically that no matter what your weight, skinny, fat, or somewhere in the middle, there are ways to use your weight to your advantage, and you should learn how. Extra weight isn't always great for riding, but I feel that people have been told that enough and I don't need to repeat it. If you want to lose weight, that's great, if you don't, just try to make sure you are as fit as you can be, because that is what DOES help your riding. If you are big boned and fit, you can be a pretty strong rider.

Subject: JRJ weight issues Larry

**weight** Weight doesn't equal fitness. Riding is one of the few sports where gender, age and body shape have very little effect on effectiveness. It isn't the weight that is the problem, but the lack of muscle, stamina and flexibility that *often* (not always) accompanies it. The reason that losing weight often helps your riding, is because in the process (providing you do it properly and don't just stop eating) you become fitter and more flexible and can therefore control your body better and for a longer period of time.

Subject: JRJ weight issues Katy Gron

**WEIGHT/FITNESS** I think people are getting their lines crossed. In reality, a person that is 50 pounds overweight is probably *not* in shape. A person that is supposedly 10 pounds over the desired may be in excellent shape - muscle weights more than fat. Many olympic sprinters, who have big, bulky muscles, can be easily 20 pounds over the so-called norm, but they are some of the fittest people in the world. Michael Jordan is 30 pounds overweight by the "standards", but we know it's all big, pure muscle.

However, there is a big difference between fat-weight and muscle-weight.

Subject: JRJ normal body fat - Lindsay Welch

As a female you are most likely 12-18% body fat if you are REALLY fit. Normal is more like 18-23% bodyfat.

Subject: JRJ Weight Loss Rachel Frazier

Okay. Maybe I am missing the point but from what I have read there are a lot of girls out there who think that they are fat. They diet and end up being like 100 or less pounds and thinner than a board. This may sound cool if you think of Gweneth(?) Paltrow, and Ally McBeal but I have a friend who dieted to the point where she was skin and bones. She called me one night and told me that she was so weak she couldn't get downstairs for dinner and finally revealed to her mother the state she was in. It was disgusting. She is much better now and gained something like 20 pounds and is very healthy but first hand she could tell you it's not cool.

And the discussion began all over again in Oct

Subject: JRJ a bunch of other stuff (Meg Sinclair)

I'm reading a book, that all of you should read. It's called "Little Girls In Pretty Boxes" by Joan Ryan. It's about the making and breaking of elite figure skaters and gymnasts. It's really amazing. Apparently practically every elite gymnast or figure skater has some sort of eating disorder. If you're not 4'7 and weigh 85 pounds, you'll never have a hope in h*ll. It makes me happy that I'm not in a sport that treats their athletes like that!!

Subject: JRJ Replies Stefanie

Also, don't say riding, as a sport, is not weight biased. There are many people who are big that ride and they are discriminated against. What about some of those plastic surgery ads that can be found in horse magazines? Riding does not have anywhere near the physical demands that gymnastics and figure skating has and therefore bigger people are seen more frequently. Please get your facts straight.

[LN] Most of those are found in magazines geared towards the disciplines that are more judgemental (IE: The weight loss ads in the h/j oriented Practical Horseman). In eventing OTOH, I've seen some big people do well- ditto for dressage.

Subject: JRJ Reply (jodi)

As for riding not having anywhere near the physical demands that gymnastic and figure skating do, on an approximate basis, riding at the trot for 30 minutes burns 184 calories, and figure skating burns 277.5 calories (this is approximate, it depends on your height, weight etc.)..so I guess you could say riding burns 2/3rds of the amount that skating does, but thats still pretty good, goes to show, riding does put physical demand on riders (especially showjumping and the like)

Subject: JRJ clearing something up...*Stef*

I realize she was exaggerating, but the its the fact that she said "practically every elite gymnast and figure skater has an eating problem and is petite" that really ticked me off. I think it would be really hard to have an eating disorder and have the energy to do all the stuff those types of athletes do, however few might have a problem. The average practice session for an elite gymnast is 8 hours or so a day and I think practice sessions for skaters is about the same. Not to mention their trainers have them on very strict diets. Oh, I think a good weight estimate would be 120-135 pounds or more for a gymnast, less for those who are petite. I know gymnast have lots of muscles, and muscle weigh a lot.

I was giving an example of psychological discrimination. A big person might see an add like that and think to succeed in dressage, h/j, whatever, they need to alter themselves. Also, judges do discriminate against weight in shows. I've seen message boards full of posts on how judges put mean comment on score sheets (in dressage) in regards to a persons weight.

I was not thinking so much in terms of calories but as in how well you can contort your body. Big people just can't really obtain the flexibility needed to reach the higher levels in sports like gymnastics/skating. I'm coming from a gymnastics background. In gymnastics you have to be very flexible to be able to do the movements correctly and safely. Looking at it in this way, gymnastics/skating is really more demanding.

Subject: JRJ Eating Disorders -Becca

Eating disorders are a bigger problem than many realize here in the show world. I know girls who won't eat in their trainers presence because they worry what she'll think (And of course the trainer eats! She could care less :) Girls who cry till the mid hours of the morning because they are afraid eq finals won't go well because he britches are a little tighter and she has gained 2 pounds. For heavens sake, i'm not petite little girl:) I've sweated what the eq judges would think, and not eaten the entire show day due to it. We all know its stupid- but sometimes its not quite that easy. A whole lot of emphasis is placed on girls in our society today, especially the showing world of our disciplines. Yes, you can still have good equitation if your heavy- you can still be a very effective rider. But can you have that same elegant look? No. I'll put myself on the line here, and say I sure as heck could lose , and should lose some weight before starting out in the Big eqs. hoping to do well next year. And its hard to not develope an eating disorder. It takes a whole lotta courage, perseverance, and dedicated work on our behalf, and we need to keep it up, but ya know what? Its there. Its a big ugly monster, and it always will be there. One of the top jumpers (No names:) had liposuction last year before WEF to keep their trim figure- and what kind of example does that set for us? well, if so and so needs to be skinny as heck, so do I. Its a big problem, and most people don't see it.

Subject: JRJ Replies (Meg)

Equestrian Sports do not treat their athletes anywhere *near* the amount as badly as figure skating and gymnastics treat their athletes. Sure, their are weight biases, just like there are everywhere. But there are many big athletes in horse-back riding who are extremely successful. (eg - Frankie Chesler. Alan Chesler. I'm sure there are many others.). There are *NO* big (by big in this sense I mean overweight) athletes who are successful in figure skating or gymnastics. In Hunters, the "overall picture" counts as part of the score, so it makes sense to see either an overweight horse or an overweight rider being scored lower than a fit rider and a fit horse, who maybe didn't have quite as good of a round. But if you go to a major Hunter show, or a Jumper show, or probably any major equestrian event, you will see that 95% of the riders look to be an average, healthy height and an average, healthy weight. In fact, the only Grand Prix rider that I've ever seen that might have some type of weight problem is a top rider. But, I've only heard rumours, and who knows? It might be in her genetics that the women are very thin.

The Canadian role models (using Showjumping as an example) are all a healthy height/weight.

I think it's hypocritical when an overweight person rides, trains, works, diets her horses really really hard, so that they'll look great for the shows, when she doesn't do the same for herself. You only get from your horse whatever the effort is that you put into it. If I were a horse, I wouldn't be packing any people like this around a course.

Subject: JRJ Trainers contributing to eating disorders...(Kristin)

: Eating disorders are a bigger problem than many
: realize here in the show world. I know girls who

You know what, this is very true. I never really gave much thought to it...but my old trainers were sometimes *just* like that :( I remember for a month there one year, they would put up a big fuss anytime someone got something from the vending machine they have up in the observation room. Ohhh and one day I got a Three Muskateers Bar hehehe, my all time fav. and one of them looked at me and said that those were pretty fattening, and I didn't really react because...well one candy bar isn't going to make u gain like 3 pounds, especially when you're more active like me...so then she said, "do you know what that stuff looks like? dog excrement." And there were a bunch of other people sitting around too...Of course it didn't bother me to keep eating it haha but it *really* bothered me that she said that, so I look a nice long bite looking at her the whole time....::sigh:: And that's something I remember to this day, think about one of my friends who is admittedly over weight...she'd always tell her that to be a good rider you can't eat pizza, and candy, and whatever other garbage she must eat. She would seriously watch her while she was eating sometimes and yell at her....UGH!!!!! I can't believe this, I never really connected it but....

Subject: JRJ riding/sport debate Lindsay

I'm kind of like that... I hate eating in anyone except family's presence for worry. I'm too self-conscious with no self-esteem whatsoever, which plays a part. Catch is, every show we went to except the first one marcy either asked if i ate, or made sure i did So I'm starting to get better about it but not totally...I can definitely sympathize with those people though - not just coaches and trainers and judges, but even people you ride with/go to school with can be very cruel about weight-related subjects. (though I've yet ot have problems with coaches/trainers/judges/riding companions :)

Subject: JRJ Rider's weight, horses ~Emily

I just wanted to reply to the whole weight thing, seeing as how it is a major discussion right now. If a 14.2hh pony can carry a full grown man, that is no different than a woman who is slightly heavy riding the same horse. The amount of weight a horse can carry is based mostly on its physical build. The shorter the horses' back, the more weight it can support. That is why a smaller more compact horse finds it easier to carry a heavier person than a thoroughbred with a long back. Ponies in fact can carry or pull almost twice their weight, which is why you find many men riding Paso Finos and other such breeds. And just because someone is heavy, doesn't mean they are using heavy aids to the horse. I have seen plenty of average, or under-average weight riders flopping around in the saddle, yanking on the reins. And while I have seen some heavier riders do this too, i have seen many heavier riders who are excellent and have quiet seats and hands. I don't think that weight determines how well you ride a horse. The average clothing size of American women is something like a size 14. That shows that the majority of American women are larger. It is very hard for some people to get to a size 4 and maintain it. It is just too general to say those who are heavy are going to be causing their mounts pain. Ok, I think I'll get off the old soapbox now. 'Tis all for tonight.

Subject: JRJ Can we please change the subject-Tay

Any one with weight discretion (either to fat or thin people) should be publicly humiliated or something to repay for all of the humiliation that they have caused.

Subject: JRJ War paint and weight--Susie

I'm very old fashioned/George Morris in this respect. In my opinion, if you expect your horse to be an athlete, than *you should be one too*. Perhaps its because I'm coming from someone who rides multiple horses a day and therefore have to be fit, but I think all riders ought to make an effort to be in shape just out of respect for their horse. No, I do not condone the current anorexia trend on the circuits, but in that hunters is all about presenting an over all picture, than yes, the fitter riders should receive a nod for that. Weight is not going to make or break you at 90% percent of all equestrian's levels, but when it comes to making the top, notice that they're all fit for riding.

Subject: JRJ Weight and Riding :Larry

Disregarding human judged showing (as opposed to timed or faulted judging) which the majority of riders in the world do NOT do regularly or seriously, what really matters is how effective the rider is, and the overall weight the horse is carrying.

My saddle, hackamore and self together weighs around 170 lbs. I use a very lightweight saddle. So what is the difference between that and a smaller rider in a heavy leather western show sadle decorated up with silver? I realise that the weight is distributed over a larger area, but as far as weight is concerned, it's much the same.

A healthy and well prepared horse in correctly fitted gear, can carry a much greater weight than the average rider places on them. Our stupid patriarchal society likes to relate everything to people, particularly women, being over weight. Size doesn't hinder a persons flexibility to a point where it would interfere with their riding (disregarding grossly obese people or those with medical disorders), though they may be less inclined to gain this flexibility because they are constantly being told that it is impossible, and the most important thing is to be thin.

The majority of women in our society have a distorted view of food and weight. This is promoted by 99% of advertising (some more so than others), anything over a size 14 being deemed a *plus* size, media images, and the list goes on.

Instead of b*tching about where horse riding comes into the heirarchy of *sports*, we should embrace the opportunities it provides for less than supposedly perfect people to have fun and excel. Lumping "horse riding" as one sport is much like calling all types of football, soccer, field hockey, lacrosse and all other types of teamed ball sports into one category. The only link between WP and polo, is a horse! The same as the link between football and soccer is a ball.

Point is, that aside from attempting to be top in your field (which takes on a whole different responsibility of turning yourself into a fit and healthy athlete), horse riding at the basic level (non serious competition....people who are doing it for fun) welcomes everyone. It can be done individually or in groups and can be tailored to encompass many different types of physical and intellectual disabilities.

Why does every discussion turn into what the elite competitive riders do?? They are the select few and most definitely a minority. Instead of looking at this distorted view, why not look at the majority which means looking at the largely recreational riders (which doesn't just mean trail riders)?

Subject: JRJ weight thing ..(Grace)

: I'm very old fashioned/George Morris in this respect. In my opinion, if you
: expect your horse to be an athlete, than *you should be one too*.

Well, I agree about being fit, but fit doesn't mean thin necessarily. I still think *no one* and I mean no one, not even 'The' George Morris, not a judge, not anyone, has any right to comment on anyone else's weight, especially to a young woman. That is how self esteem is lowered and things like anorexia and depression come about. Most likely they already KNOW they are overweight or whatever, they don't need everyone telling them that. I've seen some overweight riders or riders who aren't stick thin who could beat my butt in an equitation class any time, any day. Weight doesn't matter..the horse can handle it if he is fit and the proper size for you. JMO again.

Subject: JRJ weight Katie E. Langone

*WEIGHT* I'm with whomever it was who said she's rather "George Morris" on this issue. I believe that one should strive to be physically fit if you plan to ride with any frequency. As to weight, the numbers mean nothing; there are people who weigh "a lot", but are in great physical condition and others who weigh "very little", but are in terrible shape. Fitness, not weight, should be an athletes goal. All that aside, if someone wants to ride, I say go for it regardless of size, just be sure to find a suitable horse.

Subject: JRJ Weight Jenny Mignard

: I still think *no one* and I mean no one, not even 'The' George Morris,
: not a judge, not anyone, has any right to comment on anyone else's
: weight,especially to a young woman.

I agree. We have enough crap shoved in our faces from all angles about weight. I have been told of George Morris commenting on weight. For that reason alone I have lost all respect for that man. No one, and I mean *no one*, has the right to criticize another person's weight.

Subject: JRJ Weight Susie Thaxton

: I agree. We have enough crap shoved in our faces from all angles about
: weight. I have been told of George Morris commenting on weight. For that
: reason alone I have lost all respect for that man. No one, and I mean *no
: one*, has the right to criticize another person's weight.

Oh boy . Then here's my advice, don't ride in front of George or send a photo in to his PH clinic (further, in no way does George criticize. He simply suggest getting fit for you discipline). You forget, when you're attending a clinic or a show, you're asking for that clinician/judge's opinion on you and your riding. If you can't handle it, don't go. And I don't care what you weigh, I don't go by numbers. I go by fitness to do the job and do it well. However, on top of that I personally like to look good in my breeches.

Here's a question, just like the trends that make young women feel so fat, doesn't this nation's rising obesity worry you?

Subject: JRJ WEIGHT!! Martha Manning

This weight issue is driving me insane!!! People are pretty much on the ball with what they say, but when someone said that you should be 'fit' to be able to ride a horse...what is 'fit'?? what is 'ride a horse'??? Why are you so insensitive??

Subject: JRJ "Hot Topics" - Adrienne

Why should what you weigh limit your opportunities that are fully within physical reach? When I go to a clinic or a lesson I want their opinion on my RIDING. I want an their ideas on something I can't see or do myself (position, etc.) if COURSE I know I could stand to loose 15 pounds. I don't need to pay a coach to tell me that, I mean, it's like pointing at me and saying "you have brown hair".... well yes, I *do* own a mirror. I don't know what skinny people think, but do you think people with weight problems want to carry the extra weight? Do you think they don't think about it almost constantly? You don't have to be there to point it out... if you do, you better be the one helping us help ourselves... NOT lowering our self esteem (which drives me at least right to the fridge). Besides, I believe, if everyone was allowed to become comfortable with who they are (obese, "chubby", thin, black, white, male, female, gay, straight...) we would all carry ourselves with such confidence no such differences would never be noticed.

Subject: JRJ weight Cedar D. Ousele

*Weight* I agree w/ Susie, Meg, and George Morris on this one. Or maybe it's just easy to say because I am physically fit, being a cross country runner. Either way, I strongly feel that it's only fair that if you except your horse to be fit, you should be fit as well. I don't mean light weight, I just mean in reasonably good shape. I know slender people who aren't physically fit and many larger people who are quite physically fit, and vice versa.

Subject: JRJ Some posts from moi.. - Bettina

GEORGE MORRIS: : (further, in no way does George criticize. He simply suggest getting fit
: for your discipline)

: you expect your horse to be an athlete, than *you should be one too*.

I agree!! Although it is awful being criticized about your weight, you do have to respect the sport and the horses and that means not being lazy about exercising to improve your fitness so you and your horse have an easier time doing stuff. I'm not personally pointing at anyway so before you jump down my throat try and get my meaning here. I don't mean dieting to the point of anorexia, I mean exercising in the morning to improve your fitness and not splurging on the junk food so much. I have 100% respect for George Morris. If you have a hard time losing weight but still remain an *athlete*, I totally applaud you. It's the couch bums I'm looking at here.

Subject: JRJ More Spouting Emma Kenyon

Unless someone suffers from a genuine medical condition (eg. thyroid), it is quite dangerous keeping the excess weight. A recent paper report indicated that they are finding symptoms of heart diseases (clogged arteries; enlarged hearts) that usually turn up in 35+ people now in teenagers. Pretty scary. More teenagers nowadays are carrying excess weight than ever before. It's a pretty simple formula to lose weight: increase your activity and replace fatty foods with healthy foods. Not necessarily cutting down.

I really think it would be extremely difficult for someone to ride effectively with a lot of excess weight. I haven't seen any particularly good, overweight riders, probably because it is very difficult sometimes to look past the weight and see effectiveness.

: Eating disorders are a bigger problem than many realize here in the
: show world. I know girls who won't eat in their trainers presence
: because they worry what she'll think (And of course the trainer eats!
: She could care less :)

That would have to be one of the most stupid things I have ever heard of. My weight is not my coach's business. I don't care what he thinks about what I eat. And people who tell me they don't like eating in front of other people...the mind boggles at how STUPID this mentality is.

: Why should what you weigh limit your opportunities that are fully within : physical reach? When I go to a clinic or a lesson I want their opinion on my : RIDING. I want an their ideas on something I can't see or do myself

When I go to a clinic I think very differently, how I compete is a lot more interesting than how perfectly I sit in the saddle. If they think my horse would look better with a wider x; or that I would sit better in a different type of saddle; or even that my horse would benefit from a false tail I want to hear it. If the trainer thinks my weight is inhibiting my riding, I want to hear that too...truth hurts quite often.

Final Kris Note:

It seems we really have a problem here - with the idea of weight. No one should be forcing themselves to conform to society's ideal for looks. You, your family and your doctor need to figure out what's best for you. And girls need to get comfortable with whatever that is.